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deb

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16 years ago
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deb

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16 years ago
I'm quite sure it has no relevance to the plot but i thought it was interesting as it's the first time I've noticed it in the twenty years I've been reading Obernewtyn.

pg 17 of Obernewtyn: Where elf is thinking of her second visit to Sutrium after her parents were burned.

".......our faces stinging from the red dye. we had not known then that Henry Druid had only recently disappeared, fleeing from the wrath of the council......."

pg 115 of Obernewtyn: Matthew and Elf talking to Lewis,

"Matthew persisted. 'The last really big battle was his defection wasn't it?' Louis frowned. 'Aye. that'd be some ten years now. A long time ago,' he said after a pause."

So presuming that Elspeth was 14 or 15 when she was taken to Obernewtyn and probably 15 when this conversation takes place, that would mean she would only be 4 or 5 when she was sent to the orphan homes.

pg 116 of Obernewtyn: Still talking of Henry Druid,

"His son an' his daughters was killed in th' troubles.....'Louis added."

does this make any one else think that HD has somehow managed to keep his daughters being alive a secret from the council. I've not got that far yet but it seems to me that Erin and Gilaine would have to be 9 or 10 years old if they are 'new' daughters in Farseekers. Given that at this point in Obernewtyn Elf is say 15, and the oldest any children of HD could be would be 9 (ten years less 9 months) and Farseekers happens about a year later. I'm sure Gilaine and Erin are at least the same age as Elf. Gilaine is in love with Daffyd and Erin is a tart. A bit much for a 10 year old. So I have to wonder how he did it, did some other children die in their place or did he just hide them away? His son isn't mentioned as being alive later so presumably he did die.

What do others think???
ElspethInnle

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16 years ago
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ElspethInnle

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16 years ago
They do sound the same age as Elspeth when we hear them being talked about. I wish I could have a look at my books but unfortunately I lent them to someone :(

I think that if HD knew about the council and their distaste over him, one of the first things he would do is protect his family... The children that Louis claimed had been killed could have been decoys, looking like the children. Or Gilaine and Erin could have been too young for the council to bother with them. Or maybe HD was disappointed that he didn't have more boys, and only claimed to have male children.

The books I've read about ealier times show men not staying faithful to their wives. There wasn't that many ways to stop the women getting pregnant, so maybe after HD found out his legitimate children died, he sought out those he knew existed from other women so he had children to carry on his line. It's been a while since I've had a chance to read the books though, so I'll just stop babbling now :roll:
Wayla

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16 years ago
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16 years ago
If Henry Druid detests Gilaine so much for her mutancy, why would he protect her by hiding her away? And remember she is Erin's twin, too, so even if Druid had illegitimate children (a good idea), these particular two would have to be from the same mother.
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16 years ago

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Zieria

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16 years ago
If there's one thing that we know about Henry Druid, it's that rumours about him abound. I agree that it's possible that his son did die, which is where the story could have come from, especially given we don't hear of him having a son. Of course, it's also possible that none of his children were actually killed, and that it was just a rumour. Such a rumour would work in HD's favour, since it would make the Council think it can't use his children to get to him, since for some reason he seems to love the detestable Erin. :-/ Not sure if he would have started the rumour himself though, or if he intentionally hid them away...

I agree that Gilaine and Erin seem to be about Elspeth's age, or maybe slightly older.

That's a good observation about the age of Elspeth and Jes when their parents were killed, Deb. I hadn't connected those facts before. All I could think of was that after Elspeth was so quick with the horses, she hoped that Rushton didn't know how young she'd been made an orphan...
gehdrabrilane

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16 years ago
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gehdrabrilane

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16 years ago
The Druid didn't know Gilaine was a mutant/Misfit, he hid her away because she was mute and he was ashamed of her
Zieria

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16 years ago
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Zieria

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16 years ago
I think it was more about whether or not HD intentionally hid Erin and Gilaine from the Council. And I wonder how old she was when he realised she was flawed, and began to be ashamed or her for her muteness... How hard would that have been on her?!

It's possible that although he was ashamed of Gilaine's imperfection, he couldn't leave her to get killed by the Council. You'd hope so, anyway... :-| Or maybe it was just luck that they survived. Or maybe he just wanted to save Erin, but at that age (4-7?) he couldn't separate them...
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16 years ago
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16 years ago
I also like to believe that, no matter how much his shame over her muteness affected him, HD would still never willingly let one of his daughters die. Even if he did absolutely despise Gilaine (which I don't think he did: he just didn't like her being "flawed"), I don't think he would let the Council get her. It would be a matter of pride - the Council and Herders are his enemies, why would he let them have anything of his?

I think it was a pretty confused time, so it wouldn't surprise me if wild rumours about who'd died and who hadn't started going around, especially when HD himself had fled and no one knew if he was alive or not. On that note, do we ever hear anything of the twins' mother? I've wondered about the Druid's wife from time to time; her death was never mentioned, but she didn't appear to be in the White Valley camp. Are Herders even allowed to have wives?
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16 years ago
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JoyouSantina

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16 years ago
i think gilaine and erin are slightly older than elspeth, so say elspeth is 15? or so we seem to agree then gilaine and erin could be about 16-17 and hey don't we all agree thats the "boy" age and daffyd i rekon was deffinately older as elspeth described him as a 'man' obernewtyn but i guess she later says he's a boy when she talks to him, hmmz
ok, after flipping through the book i havent found much evidence of ages, but i guess age is arbitrary and in these i guess archaic times you would assume elspeth etc would have grow up quicker and so they're thinking of marriage etc when we're still trying to choose an occupation.
Nef

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16 years ago
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Nef

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16 years ago
'the troubles' isn't very specific - it could be any time, and there could have been a gap between his flight and the battle - as with Most things in OC, it is completely ambiguous as regards time.
deb

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16 years ago
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deb

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16 years ago
Firefall wrote....Are Herders even allowed to have wives?
Thats a good point. We don't hear of any other Herders having wives in the books though there is a mention of boys on Hearder Isle. It makes you wonder if they breed their own little Herders or revruit them from the general public.
talmina

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16 years ago
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talmina

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16 years ago
I think you would find that Druid's older children died in the battle, and these are the ones mentioned, not every person in the land is going to know exactly how many children he lost, and how many he had. All most people would know is that he lost children. Gilaine and Erin just happened to be the youngest and weren't involved in the battle. Chances are that if the Council had gotten to them they would've just put them both in the orphanage system

About the other Herders having wives thing, we dont hear a whole lot about other Herders in general, well not their personal lives at least
Nef

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16 years ago
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Nef

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16 years ago
Just a thought, Elspeth is looking back, she does say 'we had not known' - she may just be assuming the events were simultaneous - there could have been a gap of some time - also, being so young, would she have any clear idea of time?
deb

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16 years ago
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deb

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16 years ago
Thats a good question Nef. not that I have any idea of the answer. :P

I read this last night.....

pg 42, Farseekers: Elspeth testing Jik...

"I had read from his thoughts that he was a novice or apprentice priest. Born and bred on Herder Isle to servants of the priests, he had been chosen to join the priesthood."

Maybe they stopped marriages at some point????
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16 years ago
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16 years ago
Hmm, are the Herders the only people who live on the Isle? Presumably they'd have servants, wouldn't they? So maybe they recruit among servants' children from time to time?

If not, then I guess marriage must be allowed, at least for some - perhaps the higher-ups.

Deb wrote...
It makes you wonder if they breed their own little Herders or revruit them from the general public.

Didn't Dragon make that scene in Ashling over soldierguards taking boys away to be recruited as Herders? From that, I would guess that they do pick from the public occasionally...unless I'm remembering incorrectly and they were actually recruiting soldierguards, not Herders. :-/
deb

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16 years ago
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deb

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16 years ago
Nope I'm sure you're right about that Firefall. It was definately Herders.
Wayla

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16 years ago
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16 years ago
That was definitely Herders, but I think there was a girl there, too? So maybe they were being spirited away for some experiments, though of course the general public wouldn't know that...
Zieria

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16 years ago

Fri Jan 18 2008, 08:25pm
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Zieria

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16 years ago
The Herders definitely just wanted to take the boy, in the beginning: "The priests were collecting boys to be taken and trained as acolytes on Herder Isle, and the mother refused to let them take her son..." (Ashling, 170-1) But then when Dragon and the mother both interfered, the main Herder told the brownbands to take both children. I imagine he predominantly said that because there was an audience, and they wanted to discourage opposition to the Herders, although I guess experimentation is not impossible. Then again, would they be interested if she wasn't a Misfit? They'd probably just bring her up to be a servant or something...

And I agree that the Herders are probably not allowed to be bonded, given that they're priests. And their only methods of recruiting mentioned seem to involve their servants or random boys, which also suggests that they don't have families...

'the troubles' isn't very specific - it could be any time, and there could have been a gap between his flight and the battle - as with Most things in OC, it is completely ambiguous as regards time.
nef
Good point. I was half wondering that myself. It makes sense that the 'troubles' may not be his defection, or even the battle.
Nef

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Nef

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16 years ago
I was reading somewhere in Obernewtyn or FArseekers (which I'm reprising before TSK) that HD was only an acolyte, not an actual herder.... (I think), so maybe he could have wife/children
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16 years ago
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16 years ago
It's likely that lower ranking herders are allowed wives and families. Or he may have also been called to the faction late in life, and had only been an acolyte for a short time before defecting and the 'troubles' beginning. There isn't a precedent for it, but the Herders are bad people, IC deosn't want to show a grown man with kids of his own willingly joining the Faction.
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16 years ago
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16 years ago
On the subject of ages-I was reading The Farseekers today and wondered-did Michael's sweetheart get pregnant and not tell him about Rushton before he married Stephen's mother? Or did he go back to her after his wife died? Because in the first case, Rushton should be older than the Doctor, but obviously he isn't-he's supposed to be 19 and the Doctor just can't be any younger than that.

And since Rushton obviously grew up without a father (since his mother sent him to Obernewtyn expecting Michael to recognise him based only on their obvious resemblance) that points pretty strongly to him having been conceived before Michael married, so Rushton should be the older brother...?
raineth

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16 years ago
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raineth

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16 years ago
Wow I never noticed that before. Without thinking I had accepted that Rushton was younger than Stephen yet conceived before him.

Although now I think about it there is a letter that may explain it to an extent.

The first letter Elf finds when she sneeks into the doctor's chamber is one presumably from Michael to Rushton's mum. In it he basically says: she must forget what happened between them, because he doesn't want her to be a part of his strange family and; he is going to marry someone else.

I always took what happened between them was a romance that produced Rushton.

But maybe it was just a romance.

the 2nd visit to the Doc's chamber Elf finds another letter. This letter is presumably from
Lukas to Michael. It basically indicates to us that Stephen's mother (Manda) has died, and Lukas is urging him to find 'the village girl he loved as a youth'.

Maybe Michael took his father's advice and found that village girl. And that was when Rushton was conceived. Obviously something happened that made Michael return to Obernewtyn without Rushton's mother.
This could have been because he recognised the danger to his village girl from Alexi if he brought her back to Obernewtyn. Afterall, he surely would have recognised by now Alexi's desire to inherit Obernewtyn and his ruthless nature. Alexi thinks he is a good candidate to inherit considering Stepehen's condition. If Michael had brought back a wife Alexi would have seen this as a potential threat to his inheritance. As their son would be next in line to inherit, not Alexi (because Alexi is adopted).
deb

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16 years ago
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deb

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16 years ago
Thanks what I think too. Maybe Michael got her pregnant and then died before he could do anything about it, leaving her thinking he had left her. REally you can read it a lot of different ways which is true for a lot of the OC issues.
raineth

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16 years ago
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16 years ago
Yeah, he could have gone to see her in secret. So if he went back to obernewtyn for some reason (perhaps because it was coming close to winter and he couldn't afford to be gone for that whole long season) then he died during this time. No one knew about her, so she was never told.

hmmm it's a bit sad isn't it?
Zieria

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16 years ago

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Zieria

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16 years ago
I noticed a reference to ages in TSK:
Elspeth was thinking of Seresh being sent to live in the Earthtemple: "She had been only five; younger than I had been when my parents had been burned." (956)So Elspeth was definitely older than five when she was made an orphan, although we still don't know exactly how old...

By the way, I think what you said about Rushton and Stephen's family really makes sense, Raineth. :) I can see it happening like that...
mornirkirara

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16 years ago
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16 years ago
*cheers for Zieria quote* Well that clears up one thing! I think I had gone into the assumption that Elspeth had only been in the home for a few years... not close to 8!

I'm still having issues on the Great White Timeline... *sigh*

As for Erin/Gilaine and Henry Druid. How old do we assume Erin is? I took her as older than Elspeth, but perhaps she's only really like 16. That... doesn't quite fit with the 'Herder rebelled 10 years ago' theory, but:
a) people could have gotten it wrong, maybe the Druid did manage to save some children, along with his books. He managed to save his 'best looking children' ... :P
b) the Druid could have had other kids in the meantime... though this doesn't fit with my speculated Erin's guess

Raneith - love that Rushton conception theory! Yay for finding some satisfactory answers :)

Now if I can just figure out all the discrepancies about the Great White...

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