Technology is a broad concept that deals with a species' usage and knowledge of tools and crafts, and how it affects a species' ability to control and adapt to its environment.I think "knowledge of tools and crafts" is our main point to discuss - it clearly doesn't mean knowledge in general, so that's a possible point we could make - learning about the Beforetime is okay to a certain extent.(?)
I missed this earlier, but I don't think that's quite what we're wanting to argue. (I could be wrong though. :P) I suggest we want to say:"Obviously, the best way to avoid misunderstandings is to educate the Land people about beforetime technology- i.e.: bringing them to the forefront and explaining them instead of covering them up and pretending they don't exist."Sadly, learning in this context is just a fundamental that cannot extend to the complexities of beforetime teknology. We do not the understanding of beforetime sciences and time taken to understand such matters could be better spent focusing on practical learning to help us: the people of the Land.
MK wrote...Lol Deb -have you been reading the negative team threadDeb: Of course hasn't everyone |:|
Nef wrote...hmmmm - all that secret PM'ing won't do them any good (and yes I am talking to YOU - eavesdroppers never hear any good of themselves..) cos we shall be victoriousTee Hee
I guess in the long run, there's no need to be sneaky :P I just thought it would be better to discuss new points in here, rather than posting up lotsa drafts of one.Good point. ;D There is already too much reading, after all! :P And fun posts are fun. |:|
And more fun posts to post :P
mornirkirara
Yay, so our second point should be up and away - okays :p so we have a third point as well don't we? Any volunteers for tackling that one?
What do you mean by the first series was aimed at guys ???
one other thing....beforetimers needed technology! Medical care, phones etc. the misfits don't need it. as has been said they have farseeking and healers. they have coercer knights for security. In fact the misfits have a great deal more than the beforetimers did in the way of empathy and beastspeaking.
deb
with the curiousity bit I'd say...people ARE inquisitive...the will develop the tech that is relevant to their lives now.
deb
yes teknoguilders do enjoy their work but they also die younger and more frequently that others. There is a quote in Farseekers to this extent from memory.
then highlight how we are evolving in our own world. It truly is a thing of the past (which reminds me of a quote I think someone made reference to the Teknoguilders... I'd look it up but I'm at work being naughty :P)
MK
what about the industrial revoloution? Essentially, the Land is a pre industial society- what effects could a sudden influx of technologies have? employment, resources the affect on the working class vs. the wealthy?
Hannai
Recovering/using this stuff stunts the natural progression of progress because those with the brains spend all their time figuring out how something works, instead of developing their own ideas.
Min
Take the example of the teknoguilders.
One of their projects is computermachines (I can't remember off the top of my head which teknoguilder is running this project). I wonder how such a project got approved really, because it begs the question; WHY? What are they going to do with it - start the internet and talk to...oh, damn, themselves? How will they power it? What will happen WHEN the motherboard dies - they don't exactly have the tools to fix it.
Another of their projects - Jak's specifically - is to study the little glow worms that have evolved as a result of the Great White. His plan is to learn how they digest the Beforetime toxins and eventually use this teknology to get rid of the Blacklands. This is new technology, that couldn't have developed without their environment, that meets a definite need in their world. True innovation, advancement, etc.
So my two cents nearly goes with the 'don't use it because they have better ways of doing things'. Don't use it because it's irrelevant to us and stunts/stalls teknology relevant to their world.
Min, that point was kind of what my brain was dancing around with the whole natural evolution point (but I couldn't quite get there!) It's like imagine if we hopped in a Tardis and took a bunch of teknology back 1000 odd years and dumped it there- sure, the people may figure out a way to use it in some form, but what would that do for the human race? Like you say, no chance to progress- I really like that point!
PD
One additional point I thought of was based on our history; that anything we dig up about the past does essentially stay in the past, and is studied for historical reasons. We don't look back at the way some ancient civilisation used cloth or medicine and replace our latest/recent findings with their ways. Because technology constantly evolves, reverting back to an old method goes against the nature of invention.
Min
(I know, ancient methods can inspire innovation, but I assume we're talking here about grabbing a Beforetime object and using it?)
We should add that we don't propose to "leave it in the past', careful study could be made if necessary as things are uncovered. problem is that study if difficult when fairytale books are often taken as being 'real' and real stuff is taken as being 'tales'. Farseekers library, discussion on aeroplanes and mermaids. where they say 'learning from the past' what is REAL?
deb
That's true - just because we know about the past doesn't mean that we would have to adopt it, or adapt anything new from it - and the question does say 'Beforetime technologies should stay in the Beforetime' - it doesn't say we can't study them. They remain an artefact from the past, and I like your idea of making a distinction between being inspired by Beforetime methods and tech, and actually using the tech/objects.
Zieria
Just another note or two on beforetime stuff from the books. most of the teknoguild scemes have been vetoed by Guildmerge as too dangerous. Most of the beforetime tech that has been found either doesn't work, blows up or they have no idea what it is or what it's used for. There is already a museum of sorts in the Teknoguild cave at Obernewtyn so that would fit in with the 'historical' aspect of our argument. The books found in the library in Farseekers were misunderstood, with books on aeroplanes being tossed aside as fairy tales and fairy tales being thought of as ancient history, so they could get very mixed up trying to find out how things work.
deb
Elspeth has kept her secret through 5 books so as not to encourage anyone to go looking for technology especially weapons and Rushton and most of the non teknoguilders are against digging up the beforetime.
Yeah - exactly what you've said there about the Healers. I wanted to add (but then had to go to work) that it's the most obvious rebuttal; that Beforetime medical technology is needed 'now' - as opposed to letting the Healers and Herders come up with their own remedies over time. I think it's definitely an argument we're going to have to answer and dismiss quickly from the other team. So..points on medical tech in Ober:
Min
- IT DIDN'T HELP DOMICK
- for colds/viruses, they evolve constantly in our world. I hardly think a formula or potion from the past would effect a bug in the Land.
- The point may be raised that the inhabitants of Obernewtyn were saved from the plague using the beforetime tech of immunisation. Our answer to that could something like the method of injection was simply inspired by a beforetime book. The cure was an antibody developed by the Obernewtyn-ers themselves. They took a known entity and developed it for their own needs, which is what invention is.
there aren't really enough Healers to deal with things like the plague - but then of course if Ariel hadn't revived the Beforetime teknology in releasing the plague spores, then there wouldn't have been a problem...
Zieria
Also, now that the Council and Herders are gone, Herb Lore and Misfits Healing Talent will be able to be used more widely, which should help.
Just ignore this if i'm way off mark (I have a shocking memory) but wasnt the use of immunisation a direct result of the plague unleashed by the herder faction/Ariel on the town in the low lands to keep the people in check? So perhaps we can arugue that Beforetime tek was needed to counter more beforetime tek, and if you follow that system long enough, you end up with BOT...which was created to counter the more deadly forms of tek.... weapons?
Ariadne
I'm sure the other side will argue the medicinal benefits of beforetime tek to help with plagues etc etc, but it does seem that the worst plagues were all released because of teknology
PD
And as to the point of Healing and farseeking etc only being beneifical to misfits- well with talented misfits being more accepted into society, surely they can work with normal landfolk- isn't it just like 'doctors' setups here? We get sick, we go see a Doctor who is trained .... Landfolk get sick, they can go see a Healer
Ari - very good point about the tech being used in reaction to the beforetime tech/plague. It has a counterbalance to it; one bit of Beforetime tech isn't needed without the other. It highlights again how the evolved Land deals with life so differently to the Beforetime, that any bits of tech used end up causing a mess and the only way to resolve them (because the ways are so alien) is to adapt more Beforetime tech to cancel it out. Another reason why usage of it should be buried (but again, not forgotten, as it is from our past that we learn important lessons, and without understanding of the past, you can't learn the lesson :P).
Min
The plauge seeds found in Ariel's hidden bunker thingy were destroyed as was a lot of other 'tech' in the series as it was dangerous.
deb
inventions come from need. they are developed over time to fulfill a need or to make life easier. Our needs are very different to the beforetimers, we have seen already in the OC the development of tek thats suirted to them) I know we have....... just cant think of any atm |:(
Eilidh
and on the point on health and technology - bacteria and viuses evolve as well, our over use of antibiotics (ie people demanding ABs unnecessarily for viral infections) and disinfectants have lead to bugs becoming resistant, we now have 'superbugs' such as MRSA (methicillin resistant staphylococcus aureas) that is a serious pain to deal with.
I'm also trying to get something out about immune systems and bugs - our obsession with cleanliness and al these cleaning products designed to anhilate bugs, means we are exposed to less dirty things our immune systems aren't given the opportunity to get stronger.
(thinking along the lines of we're so obsessed with not being dirty - all these hand sanitisers etc and not letting kids get dirty ok better idea: example: my sis and i were always grubby little kids playing in the sand and with animals and all that, and never got sick, whereas my cousin was never allowed to get dirty, adn always sniffly and just not completely healthy)
also our abundance of artificial additives have lead to the increase in intolerances to such things. so, whilst our technology develops, it seems our bodies are possibly evolving with it, in more negative way.
one other point to note maybe for the third speaker is the neg team will say that we use beforetime tek all the time with books and musical instruments and such so we need to say something about those teks that have been with us all along, in constant use, and modified to suit our world.
deb
maybe we could point out that in line with their definition, introducing NEW Beforetime technologies - which was a distinction we made for a reason - WILL affect Landfolk/gypsies' development, and as a result "their ability to control and adapt their environment". (And that may not be a good thing.)
Zieria
I wanted to clarify my "books are not Beforetime technologies" point, and expand upon it. (Although I was partly joking with the book comment, I thought I'd see what we could argue. :P) Anyway, clearly books are originally from the Beforetime, however they ARE still being used in the current time in the Land, even if the Council did construct them a bit differently. Point being, their continued use means that they could be said to be no longer just Beforetime technologies. I mean, we're hardly going to tell everyone they can't have council elections, or that they can't farm, or use wagons or build houses - because although these technologies were also used in the Beforetime, they have been in use since that time. Therefore, we wish to propose that they are not exclusively Beforetime technologies.
And then of course the point I was getting at earlier - knowledge itself is NOT the same as technologies - so it's okay to read to get knowledge from books, because they aren't exclusively Beforetime technologies anyway. :D
And I think we could possibly claim that SOME of their technology MAY be okay - but only where it builds upon technology that the Landfolk and gypsies etc already have (as mentioned above, it's no longer exclusively Beforetime technology). I think we'll have a harder time convincing them about Ines... ;P