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• moonfairy

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  15 years ago

  Sat Sep 20 2008, 09:20am

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  moonfairy

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  Guardian

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  15 years ago

  ---

  Greetings! As you are probably aware, Round 1 is still underway and soon we shall be asking members to PM us with their votes for who they think should be the victors! Voting earns you a shiny guild point – (not to mention an extra 5 guild points to each of the active members of the winning team!) In the meantime, I’m pleased to announce the beginning of Round 2 of the Gypsy Soap Box debates! I speak on behalf of Swallow and my fellow Moonfairies that we have been all quite impressed with your displays of critical thinking and communication skills. This next round will test your abilities to think outside the box, that is, your creativity. This round will not have you rebutting against the other teams, rather, we are looking for how well your develop your arguments. Also keep in mind that your debate shall be assessed by your ability to work as a team as well as effectiveness and entertainment of your present arguments. This debate will become active from the 18th of September until the 26th of September. At the end of this, the threads will close, and we shall ask for Obernetters to cast their votes. As there is no need for your argument to depend inherently on the other teams, we hope that this time frame will not represent a problem in developing your theories. The teams are as follows:

  Team 1	Team 2	Team 3	Team 4
  Deb	Arwen	Cat Eyes	Jimmy
  Halfbreeds_rule	Nef	The Swedish Cat	Agyllian
  Zieria	Avialle	MornirKirara	Schis
  Whiplash	Kangaruth		Maz
  			Saytar Rai

  
  Anyone wishing to join this debate, can still sign up until the 21st of September in which we shall allocate you to a team. Now, the debate topic for Round 2! [act] Swallow rises from his seat and proceeds to the ‘soap box’ platform[/act] The topic is:

  “Maruman is a/an _____________. Explain how this could be so with his role in The Obernewtyn Chronicles.”

  [act]frowns[/act] What’s a Maru-man? Some sort of Great White human by-product? Moonfair: ::) Just keep reading Swallow. Swallow: [act]mutters something about how is he meant to judge if he doesn’t even understand the topic[/act] The teams as follows will attempt to convince us that he - and I assume it’s a he, as them name implies it: Team 1: Alien Team 2: Ghost Team 3: Robot Team 4: Reincarnation of Cassy Duprey Please note the colours as this is the colour we would like your posts to be. I look forward to understanding this ‘Maru-man’ and how he could possibly be all those things? Actually, come to think of it… what are those things? Remember, development and discussions of your ideas take place in your actual team theads, and your final argument will be posted here to be viwed and voted upon other members. That is it from us - have fun!
   
• moonfairy

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  15 years ago

  Fri Sep 19 2008, 08:22pm

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  moonfairy

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  Guardian

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  15 years ago

  ---

  A //question has been raised about who your opponents are to be this round:
  This round will be more like the Theory Challenges. (found on the obernewtyn theories forum) in that you won't be specifically pointing at flaws/rebutting at another team, rather, the focus is on how convincing you are with your arguments.
  
  Consequently, there will only be one post per team.
  
  If you have anymore questions, please don't hesitate to PM us and we'll answer them in this thread :)
  
  UPDATE 19/09/08
  We see that teams are now starting to try to work out how they are going to present their posts and since there isn't going to be any specific rebuttals this round, we thought we'd offer a suggested outline of how to structure your arguments:
  
  1. Define the topic
  - how do you interpret your question and clear up an vague terms
  
  2. How this could be possible and how it ties into Elspeth's quest!
  - we don't believe in the word 'impossible' So convince us why this is the case!
  How does Maruman fit best as ____ and what is the significance of him as this role?
  e.g. Alien = unhuman powers?
  Ghost = immortality?
  Robot = unlimited knowledge database?
  Cassy = able to make sure she's can help Elspeth properly?
  We're sure you can come up with other ideas ;)
  
  3. Present evidence of this from the book
  - give us a few examples of how Maruman has demonstrated his uniqueness
  
  Admittedly, points 2 and 3 may overlap somewhat. Just keep in mind the best way to present your answer to make it easier for people to be swayed to your way of thinking ;)
   
• moonfairy

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  15 years ago

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  moonfairy

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  Guardian

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  15 years ago

  ---

  Greetings all!
  
  This thread is now open for posting!
  
  Could we please ask that you limit your arguments to approximately 700 words.
  
  Thank you!
   
• moonfairy

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  15 years ago

  Mon Sep 29 2008, 06:45pm

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  moonfairy

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  Guardian

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  15 years ago

  ---

  Stay posted for an update of the closing of this debate round (we are giving an extension until the 2nd of October (this Thursday!) - so keep working at it! :))
   
• Cat-Eyes

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  cateyes
  

  15 years ago

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  Cat-Eyes

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  cateyes
  

  Dreamscape Artist

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  15 years ago

  ---

  “Maruman is a robot. Explain how this could be so with his role in The Obernewtyn Chronicles.”
  
  We define Maruman to be 100% robotic, with no living parts. However, The Obernewtyn Chronicle's Beforetime is set a long way in the future and their technology is greater than ours, so we do not confine him to early 21st Century robotics. With the exception of misfit abilities, all animals and humans do not appear to have changed significantly in the time between now and the Beforetime, so we have compared the robotic Maruman to regular 21st Century cats.
  
  

  "The truth is that his mind is such a mess generally it is a wonder he can think straight even some of the time ... The amazing thing is that his mind seems to have adapted itself. There are the most extroadinary links and by-passes - yet somehow it all functions. ..." -Christa speaking to Elspeth, Farseekers, p23

  
  Maruman's mind appears warped to Elspeth and the other misfits - of course it does, they're comparing it to regular animal and human minds. But Maruman's mind isn't regular - it's robotic.
  
  

  "...His pain and strange mind make him receptive to us and allow us to use him." -Agyllian speaking to Elspeth, Farseekers, p27

  
  The Agyllians are, understandably, pretty happy they found a perfect Moonwatcher they can communicate with the Seeker through. But how unlikely is that, they just happened to find a cat with the perfect, yet inexplicable, mutations of the mind who happened to live close enough to the Seeker for them to plant him there, and on the way happened to have not died at an inconvenient moment. Sure, maybe the Agyllians found a regular cat and distorted his mind for him, but are birds that were terribly experimented on really going to repeat the treatment on another animal? Besides, how would anyone know what to do to it? "The most extroadinary links and by-passes" is how Christa described it. How long and how many cats would it have taken for the Agyllians to work out what to do? Thousands of animals and years would have been spent working this out! Clearly there was very little extra Beforetime knowledge of the brain since they had so little idea about misfits, so it's just preposterous to imagine the Agyllians could really have manipulated Maruman's mind for him.
  
  But, then if it was natural mutations, how did it happen? Christa (Farseekers, p23) and Elspeth (TSK, p41) both believed it occured when he was a kitten, yet this is later disproved.
  
  

  The most likely thing was that he was the survivor of a farmer's attempt to drown an unwanted litter, but that beginning, however traumatic, would not explain the strange distortions of his mind. -TSK, p41

  
  

  It took me a moment to realise with shock that it was Maruman, but not Maruman as I knew him, old and scarred. He was whole and young and his two eyes gleamed as he grew wings and sprang into the sky.
  
  'Merimyn!' the girl cried, laughing. -TSK, p704

  
  Merimyn has a regular mind, yet if Merimyn is Maruman then how did Maruman get his strange, yet so useful, distortions? Merimyn was a regular cat, owned by the girl who "reminded [Elspeth] strongly of the stone figure of the frowning girl at Stonehill. (TSK, p704)" He dreamed of Elspeth.
  
  He died. All cats do, when they're old. (Except Maruman, it seems. Although he has fallen into disrepair a bit - the missing eye, the patchy fur. Of course, since he never gets to go visit the only people who know he is a robot and might have the technology required to replace these, it's not like he could grow more fur like regular cats, he's stuck that way.)
  
  The Agyllians needed a way to contact the Seeker. They needed a good Moonwatcher. They're really smart, and they lived in the Beforetime, which it's probable to say had more advanced robotics than we do now. They designed a robotic cat, and modelled him on the cat who had dreamed of the Seeker.
  
  It's not that hard to imagine. The Agyllians were in an enviable position in that they knew what he would be required to do - walk the dreamtrails (perhaps how he picked up some of Merimyn's old memories), converse with other animals (something no humans would have known) and converse with Beastspeakers - and they could test this. They could have got a computer like INES to design the majority of the electronics or perhaps there were some very handy plans lying around. A computer could predict how a robot will react, we don't know enough about living brains (which, afterall, evolved rather than being designed, they don't follow logic) to do this, which is why the Agyllians couldn't have perfected their possible distorting a real mind in a computer. But they could design a new one, a robotic one.
  
  

  After all, the Agyllian mystic ruthlessly used the old cat's distorted mind as a conduit because those distortions meant he could not be spied upon. - TSK, p42

  
  Having a Moonwatcher they can communicate with and can watch the Seeker from seems to be a pretty useful idea to the Agyllians. They could tune Maruman to Elspeth, to ensure only she was allowed into his mind to receive messages from them. They could control him using all the outdated satellites still floating away up in space, whereas we know farseeking doesn't work over long distances or the Blacklands. (Maybe this would explain his aversion to the moon - he's sick of getting messages? ;) ) This was one damn good plan of the Agyllians. And, even better, no one will pick up on it because they've never seen robotic animals! Elspeth doesn't even know what jeans (or genes, for that matter) are, she's not going to recognise computer technology where she doesn't expect any! She's not a teknoguilder, and she doesn't need to be as she and everyone else never actually modify or upgrade Maruman in any way, so she has no idea what she's looking for. It's the perfect plan!
  
  All in all, Maruman being a robot is the only possible explanation for some of the big mysteries Elspeth herself doesn't know the answers to! And, on the part of Agyllians, it's just so very useful.
   
• Zieria

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  15 years ago

  Thu Oct 02 2008, 11:57pm

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  Zieria

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  Dreamweaver Ward
  

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  15 years ago

  ---

  Today our team will argue that Maruman is really an alien. We define 'aliens' to mean extraterrestrial beings with superior intelligence whereby they have a deeper, more practised understanding of mental abilities than creatures of Earthly origins. We will persuade you of the reasons why Maruman is an alien and how his role as one is vital to Elspeth's quest.
  
  We believe that Maruman is part of a larger network of aliens overseeing and manipulating the outcome of Elspeth's quest. Foremost among these are the Agyllians and their Beforetime counterparts.
  
  We propose that these aliens, who are peace-loving creatures, travelled to earth after they foresaw (using abilities equivalent to Talents) that human beings would ultimately destroy their own world. The aliens saw that they were needed to prevent this destruction, as related to Elspeth by Atthis, the aliens' leader:
  

  "'Long ago I foresaw that the machines which made the great destructions had not been destroyed. I saw that a second and greater destruction would come to the world, if these machines were used. And despite all the funaga did to bury the past, it was inevitable they would be discovered, unless they were destroyed. ... Then I dreamed one would be born among the funaga, a Seeker to cross the black wastes in search of the death machines, one who possessed the power to destroy them.'" (Atthis, The Farseekers, 280)

  IC

  The Agyllians subjected themselves to Govamen's experiments in order to impart their abilities to humans, as Talented humans are generally more compassionate. The book Powers of the Mind revealed that Talents such as coercing and empathy did not exist before these experiments. The aliens also helped Elspeth to discover her abilities; she says that '...without him [Maruman] I would never have discovered the full extent of my telepathic powers.' (Obernewtyn 20-21)
  Similarly Nerat used his superior mental powers to enhance Elspeth's abilities:
  

  '"Your body must be taught to repair itself and build its immunities. That is a simple matter of teaching, and can be done even as I drain the mental poisons."' ... 'Occasionally I was aware of Nerat's mind weaving a pattern in my thoughts as complex and intangible as smoke in the wind.' (The Farseekers, 264)

  IC

  You may ask how did the aliens arrive here and how did they change their appearance to suit earthlings? The answer lies in the dreamtrails. The dreamtrails are a place that was discovered and made use of by the aliens. It is evident that neither beasts nor humans have great knowledge of the dreamtrails (Maryon explains that only the most advanced futuretellers even know of their existence, and Gahltha did not know of them until Maruman showed him), yet Maruman can masterfully traverse this unstable phenomenon.
  
  The aliens travelled to earth via the dreamtrails – a journey that could only be made by those with alien abilities. We propound they used this technique described by Elspeth:
  

  'I seemed to have no proper feeling for it, but the second I touched Maruman, I felt myself absorbed by his form and grace. He gathered himself, leaped, and went on rising. It struck me suddenly that I had never used my Talent to rise from the point of consciousness before. Always I had descended. How much would our minds be capable of, I wondered, if we would only know them better?' (TKP, 208)

  IC

  Maruman fits best as an alien because he is clearly a corporeal being, he can be injured, and we saw him as a young cat centuries in the past. He is a physical being, and yet something more than an ordinary cat.
  
  The aliens altered their physical appearance to Earth-like creatures by manipulating their appearance on the dreamtrails and manifesting the changes in their earthly form. We know that physical manifestations on the dreamtrails can occur in real life, and that (as Maruman says) '"Real are things on them."' (Maruman, TKP, 118) This is evidenced by Elspeth making a piece of charcoal appear in her hand and then discovering she still possessed it when she woke, however it is most strongly demonstrated in Maruman's appearance. Gahltha observes that

  '"The dreamtrails are strange/dangerous. There are beasts like none that walk the earth on them, and shapes that hide/conceal other shapes, yet one grows better at it."' (Ashling, 328)

  IC

  These strange beasts are in fact aliens. Maruman's tyger-like form is not identical to that of a tyger, although '...the slashing marks his coat bore were very like to those great cats which Beforetime books name tyger.' (TKP, 17) We maintain that Maruman's alien form is very like that of a tyger, as Maruman says: '"Mayhap this dreamform is truer than that othershape I bear."' (TKP, 17)
  
  Maruman did not retain his tyger-like form because it was ostentatious and would jeopardise his mission. The Agyllians are already prominent as it is; as Enoch says, '"they're rare, and rare things are hunted."' (Obernewtyn, 61) Maruman's cat form cannot be maintained perfectly. His battered appearance may be attributed to his susceptibility to earthly bacteria, as with his infected eye.
  
  We believe Maruman's distorted mind makes him unique, as the other aliens do not suffer from his madness. Maruman's strange mind proves especially advantageous to his role in guiding Elspeth, as Atthis '...ruthlessly used the old cat's distorted mind as a conduit because the distortions meant that he could not be spied upon.' (TSK, 42) Maruman's alien nature also dislikes human emotions, as he finds them 'untidy/disturbing.'
  
  The aliens arrived in the Beforetime, although they arrived only when they were needed. The aliens were inconspicuously yet powerfully positioned to carry out their mission, both in the Beforetime and in the post-apocalyptic world. A young Maruman (as Merimyn) was connected to a girl believed to be Hannah's daughter. Merimyn was preserved until Elspeth's time by being cryogenically frozen after the Great White so that he would wake in time to help Elspeth in her quest. 'Merimyn' as Maruman's original name is supported by his response to the name in the amethyst cavern. Furthermore, as Elspeth observes,

  'Maruman said he "remembered" the Great White, and though that was impossible, he wove remarkably frightening pictures of a world in terror.' (Obernewtyn, 28)

  IC

  Maruman's role is to aid and direct Elspeth in her quest, as he says: '"When I was in the Oldplaces, I dreamed of the Old One. She said I must follow you. It was my task."' (Obernewtyn, 29-30) Maruman has the role of Moonwatcher: he is guardian of the dreamtrails, and looks after Elspeth in her dreams.
  
  Maruman travels the dreamtrails to see the future, but also to communicate with the present (the Agyllians) and past (Cassy and Hannah), which explains why he often knows more of Elspeth's quest when he returns. We suggest he does this when he goes seliga, as he goes 'behind' or 'before/back' in time.
  

  '"Maruman knows dreamtrails. Knows where doors are/were."
  '"You mean your memory of the doors," I sent kindly as if he were a halfwit muddling things up.
  '"All that is/was/can be can be reached by dreamtrails. Real are things on them."'
  (TKP, 118)

  IC

  Thus the dreamtrails can indeed be used to reach the past, present and future.
  
  Finally, the Moonwatcher knows that the weaponmachines, the cause of the Great White, are kept on the moon (but controlled from the earth). Thus he regards the moon suspiciously and tells Elspeth that 'the moon waits' for her to go on her quest.
  
  So, fellow Obernetters, do not let mentions of robots, ghosts or reincarnation fool you. As you can see, Maruman is truly an alien – an extraterrestrial with superior mental abilities, using his powers to help Elspeth in her quest.
   
• avialle

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  15 years ago

  Fri Oct 03 2008, 10:58am

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  avialle

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  15 years ago

  ---

  Greetings gypsies, misfits, opposing team members, and Moonfairies.
  We are here today to persuade you that Maruman is a ghost. This means that the Maruman who walks with us today is a ghost or spirit of his deceased self, projected from the spirit world/astral plane. You may be thinking that this is a ludicrous idea, but we will show that this is actually the most logical conclusion, considering the evidence. We will speak about the reasons why Maruman must be a ghost. We will also tell you how he manages to appear normal to us, and discuss ideas about the afterlife. Finally, we will tell you how Maruman being a ghost ties in with Elspeth's quest.
  
  There is a compelling reason why Maruman is a ghost; cats usually don't live more than 20 years, but Maruman was alive during the Great White.
  

  "Maruman said he 'remembered' the Great White, and though that was impossible, he wove remarkably frightening pictures of a world in terror."
  Obernewtyn p28

  
  Therefore he must surely be dead. But how can Elspeth interact with him? The answer is simple - he must be a ghost. You might think he could be some other supernatural creation that is more long-lived than usual. However, we know that he was once a young cat because this is how Elspeth met him on the Dreamtrails.
  

  "There, to my astonishment, sat a small motley-coloured cat. It took me a moment to realise with shock that it was Maruman, but not Maruman as I knew him, old and scarred. He was whole and young and his two eyes gleamed as he grew wings and sprang into the sky."
  TSK p704

  Therefore he has aged, and aging is strong proof that he was once living.
  Maruman being with Hannah (or her child) on the Dreamtrails also links him into Elspeth’s quest.
  
  The kitten is called “Merimyn” not Maruman, but beasts have been known to change their names when they take on new lives – Gahtha changes his name to Galta when he believes himself to be nothing and Smoke is renamed Rasial when she joins the Beastguild. In this way, it is likely that Maruman changed his name when he died and went to the Dreamtrails.
  
  So, now that we've convinced you that Maruman must be a ghost, we must explain how it could be possible. Obviously not every being who dies becomes a ghost or the Land would be overrun by them.
  However, the beasts do believe that the states of death and dreams are connected.
  

  “Beasts called death longsleep and believe it to be connected to sleeping.
  TKP p18”

  Perhaps a beast can choose not to merge with the mindstream and, instead, remain in an extended state of sleep.
  

  "Dreams may have purposes the dreamer cannot fathom. They are the gateways to dreamtrails and may lead also to longsleep," Maruman sent.
  TKP p18

  Maruman is using the Dreamtrails to project himself into Elspeth's world.
  
  Maruman tells Elspeth -
  

  "All that is/was/can be can be reached by dreamtrails. Real are things on them."
  TKP p118

  Maruman has used this to overcome time and reach the future but most other animals do not have the skill or wish to. Maruman has been playing on the Dreamtrails since he was a kitten, where Elspeth sees him, so he is very practised at using them and his presence there is strong. Gahltha tells us
  

  "I/Gahltha am notstrong on dreamtrails. Not as Marumanyelloweyes."
  TKP p640

  
  Maruman also has a very unique mind. This is obviously because he is projecting himself from the 'astral plane', or the Dreamtrails. Without a body to tie himself down, there are less boundaries between himself and all the other entities and possibilities on the Dreamtrails. Consequently his mind mingles with these things and his mind pattern changes.
  
  Maruman must have amazing strength and skill to give himself apparent form. Senses, such as touch, are processed by the brain. If something (ie. Maruman) sends the right messages straight to your brain you can experience touch without the real life stimuli. Misfit coercers can do this, and so can Maruman. Maruman can penetrate Elspeth’s mind easily, and she is one of the strongest Misfits in the Land.
  
  Maruman often goes away wandering for extended periods of time, and comes back with injuries, as though he had been fighting.
  These are not physical injuries, but injuries sustained on the Dreamtrails, which is where he has been.
  Gahtha calls this return to the dreamtrails as going/being “seliga”.
  

  "Marumanyelloweyes is seliga, so Gahtha watches"...
  I had not recognised the beastword Gahtha had used: seliga. I thought it meant something like "behind" or "back".
  TKP p640

  
  

  I frowned into his dark eyes. "Do you/Gahtha know where he/Maruman is?"
  "The voices of his chaos/madness call him when they will and he/Maruman must hear them. The strain of guardianship caused the voices to call."
  Ashlings p291

  When the strain of maintaining the illusion of a physical body becomes too much, he must return to the Dreamtrails and recouperate.
  
  It is during these “periods of madness” as Elspeth calls them, that Maruman is able to foresee the future. The Dreamtrails contain every possibility, past and future, and so give him his prophesies.
  
  So how does this fit in with Elspeth’s quest?
  The advantages of Maruman being a ghost are quite obvious. For one, it is the only way he could help Elspeth. He could not have survived long enough to aid her otherwise.
  His strange mind, and adeptness at navigating the Dreamtrails are both instrumental in her quest.
  Because of the Dreamtrails, Maruman's mind is difficult to navigate. This makes it safe from the Destroyer and H’rayka. The Agyllians’ secrets are safe there and they can even use his mind as a place to communicate
  

  "I/We are Agyllian. [...] I have used the yelloweyes to communicate with you, Elspeth Innle, knowing you would come to his deepest mind. His pain and strange mind make him receptive to us and allow us to use him."
  Farseekers p34

  And, without Maruman to guide her, Elspeth would never have been able to find the map and message in the doors of Obernewtyn, nor enter Dragon’s mind to find the sign there.
  The prophesies that the Dreamtrails give him have also been useful.
  
  In conclusion, the evidence points most strongly to Maruman being a ghost. It is easily explained and there is a lot of evidence which backs up our reasoning. We hope we have convinced you.