Team 1 |
Deb |
Halfbreeds_rule |
Zieria |
Whiplash |
Oh, I like that thought - I really like the idea that maybe Maruman knows this, and that is why he hates the moon... ;Dexcept the moon because something really bad happened there or will happen there
Deb
I also really like the idea that Cassy and her dad and Merimyn could have been cryogenically frozen on the moon. ;D I would suggest that if we go with this possibility, then maybe Hannah and her daughter were as well, since I think that Merimyn was connected to Hannah's daughter (going from page 704 of TSK)? I love how you've worked the definitions into it as well! :) (We could incorporate most of those even if we take it in a different direction, as well! :D)there must have been "important" people (ie probably leaders/politicians) who thought they were important enough to save; were cyrogenically frozen. Some people were preserved on earth (like in the Beforetime ruins) and some people were probably frozen on the Moon. People like Cassy and her Dad were there...and maybe if Merrimyn was a pet of Cassys he might have been frozen too?
Mono
I'll go hunting for quotes - it's always fun! :) I think for the moment we can continue discussing our ideas all together, and then maybe we can allocate aspects of the topic closer to the closing date if we think that would work out better? I don't mind either way. :) (We have until the 26th to formulate our argument.)We see that teams are now starting to try to work out how they are going to present their posts and since there isn't going to be any specific rebuttals this round, we thought we'd offer a suggested outline of how to structure your arguments:
Moonfairy
1. Define the topic
- how do you interpret your question and clear up any vague terms
2. How this could be possible and how it ties into Elspeth's quest!
- we don't believe in the word 'impossible' So convince us why this is the case!
How does Maruman fit best as ____ and what is the significance of him as this role?
e.g. Alien = unhuman powers?
Ghost = immortality?
Robot = unlimited knowledge database?
Cassy = able to make sure she can help Elspeth properly?
We're sure you can come up with other ideas ;)
3. Present evidence of this from the book
- give us a few examples of how Maruman has demonstrated his uniqueness
Admittedly, points 2 and 3 may overlap somewhat. Just keep in mind the best way to present your answer to make it easier for people to be swayed to your way of thinking ;)
How this could be possible and how it ties into Elspeth's quest!Also, are we thinking he's got good intentions as to why he's helping Elf? I imagine so - it would probably be more convincing - although I'm not sure whether I'd want to have him for or against the other aliens. (I suppose he could hate his home planet (the moon?) because he knows the other aliens want to destroy the earth, so he's helping Elf so she'll destroy the moon - although that seems rather aggressive - and convoluted! :P)
- we don't believe in the word 'impossible' So convince us why this is the case!
How does Maruman fit best as ____ and what is the significance of him as this role?
Ooh, sudden idea! Maybe the Govamen was run by aliens who were making humans and animals develop telepathy? This could have been going for far longer than since Cassy's Beforetime... (Yeah, sorry - I really shouldn't watch the X Files... ::) ) But it's a good point that Maruman's not unique in possessing telepathy - we definitely do need to consider this point.Mental telepathy has been an ailien thing for ever in books and movies so that could work in, and explain the other animals as being 'programed' so no-one would think to ask why only one cat has it.
Deb
I really like these ideas! :D If we combine these two elements, maybe the aliens are from the moon, and it is toxic (as you were saying, like whitestick), but maybe that's actually the aliens' preferred environment, so they want to make the earth radioactive so that they don't have to keep going into the Blacklands to revitalise their powers. (It could explain why Maruman often wanders into the Blacklands and why it doesn't seem to hurt him.)The aliens/govamen created the weaponmachines to destroy earth so they could rule over it.
Mono
the term Whiteface for the moon. it reminds me of whitestick...so do you think that whitestick is radioactive stuff off the lunar surface? Maybe even the Moon is toxic?
How does Maruman fit best as ____ and what is the significance of him as this role?We haven't really been definitive enough for the "fit(s) best as" aspect, but I'm sure we can manage it without a problem. :) I'll try to post quotes this evening or tomorrow, including the ones you've mentioned, plus a couple more specific to Maruman. :)
That's why they are here to help Elspeth...you know how it's said that there are more Talented people than before? And the segregation of the UnTalents is more pronounced? Maybe the aliens imparted their Talents to certain humans in the hope that they'd find ONE human (the Seeker) to help them destroy these machines and restore harmony/peace on earth. Perhaps this explains why maruman fits best as an alien and his significance in this role.Oh, I like that idea, because Talented people are generally less likely to be selfish and greedy, especially if they possess empathy - we could use that quote of Bram's about how the Misfits showed themselves to be more human than Malik - although obviously Malik is unusual in being as much of a ... jerk as he is, but then Ariel is unusual for Talented people. But I really like the idea that they were also using their influence to essentially create the Seeker. :)
I'm trying to think how Maruman + seliga fit together in this context. Perhaps when he goes Seliga he goes back to his alien country? That's why Elf can't access his mind cos he's like half a universe away? lol"Seliga" could even be just on the Dreamtrails, although I like the idea that he might use them to get somewhere else. If "seliga" means something like behind/back, it COULD mean Before, as in the Beforetime, or even just back in time. So I was thinking maybe he uses the Dreamtrails to go back in time, like that time he sent Elf back to Ober to go riding in the mountains with Gahltha - Maruman said he sent her back in time. Maybe that's what Maruman was doing when Elf saw him with Hannah's daughter? Although he wasn't his current self, as it seemed like it was the earlier version of his mind, before he had met Elf - although he HAD dreamed of her... Okay, yeah, not sure about that. :-?
and if they're from the moon (or have been on the moon), clearly they would want to avoid the destruction of earth, as the moon would probably be destroyed as well.
And if the aliens want to save the world and Maruman is working with them, perhaps they found out about Cassy and what she was doing, and found a way for him to help her, and then sent him through time to Elf (whether through cryogenics or an alien alternative), so that he could help her in her quest. Having been in the Beforetime, surely he'll have a chance of being able to help her with computers, not to mention other stuff he might be able to help with, being an alien...
"Seliga" could even be just on the Dreamtrails. If "seliga" means something like behind/back, it COULD mean Before, as in the Beforetime, or even just back in time.
Maybe that's what Maruman was doing when Elf saw him with Hannah's daughter? Although he wasn't his current self, as it seemed like it was the earlier version of his mind, before he had met Elf - although he HAD dreamed of her
Oh, I like that idea, because Talented people are generally less likely to be selfish and greedy, especially if they possess empathy - we could use that quote of Bram's about how the Misfits showed themselves to be more human than Malik - although obviously Malik is unusual in being as much of a ... jerk as he is, but then Ariel is unusual for Talented people. But I really like the idea that they were also using their influence to essentially create the Seeker.
I think Hannah and Cassy were paranormal human beings before the aliens found them, and the aliens taught them how to enhance their Talents. Evidence: Cassy beastspeaking to Atthis's ancestor for the first time ever.I agree that the aliens probably enhanced their Talent, as it does seem that they had some Talent without ever having been experimented on. Although it's interesting that neither of Cassy's parents seem to be Talented... Maybe there could have been drugs involved, given to her parents, that helped her to develop Talent? :-/ Also, I wonder if Elf is a descendent of Cassy - it could make it easier for them to make Elf dream about her?
It's possible for Maruman and/or Athis to direct Elf's dreams and her dreamtrail wanderings to dreaming about Cassy and Hannah and the Beforetime. To teach her about her quest.Oh, perfect - I'm sure they'd have ways of doing that! :D And we know from TSK that Cassy/Kasanda knew that Elf was dreaming of her:
I CALL YOU FRIEND, SEEKER, THOUGH WE HAVE NEVER MET, FOR I HAVE KNOWN YOU A VERY LONG TIME. TO YOU I KNOW THAT I WILL ONLY EVER BE A STRANGER WHOM YOU HAVE SOMETIMES GLIMPSED IN DREAMS OF A TIME THAT YOU WILL CALL THE BEFORETIME.
Kasanda
Oh! and the Statue of Elspeth in the city under Tor - That could have been the product of futuretelling and what you said before about Oedipus Rex - self fulfilling prophecy. That is, once Cassy created the Statue of Elspeth, (once again instigated by the aliens evoking her Talents) Elspeth was pretty much destined to be created.Ooh, nice idea! :D It's like in Harry Potter, where the response to the prophecy determined its truth...
Another thing to note: How did the Agyllians end up in the Govamen experiments? Well, there's always been top secret files in the government that they keep hidden from citizens. This is no different. The Govamen (by that time in the future) will know of the existence of alien species; so they may be aware of the Agyllians being aliens because of their superior intelligence. And the Govamen had the program for humans to try and replicate the superior intelligence in slum people etc about Hannah, the powers of the mind, reichler clinic etc.I love your ideas of how the Agyllians ended up being experimented on - if we go with "bad" aliens, I'm sure they'd have ways of finding out about the birds, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Govamen humans would know that kind of stuff anyway, as you were saying. :)
We know this is essentially what happened with Elf and Swallow (whether Maruman sent himself or was sent by the other aliens), and it would be the most subtle way for the rest of them (other than Cassy/Hannah) to find out about one another – rather than reading books that record your fingerprints, or wandering around the Govamen complex and getting yourself noticed. This would be important if there were also bad aliens, or even to avoid having the corrupt human members of the Govamen find out about them and what they were doing in saving the earth. Oh, and maybe Maruman either came with the Agyllians, or they saw him in futuretellings as well.“Two people, I thought, sent out by seers to find one another. There was a terrifying symmetry in it.†(Ashling, 269)
IC
Yes, true - he reacted to the name Merimyn, and it's likely that he even knew he was going to be "singing":Evidence: Maruman knowing exactly what to do when he sung his name and Cassy calling him Merrimyn.
Mono
"So eager has he been to come to you that he rent the night with his dreadful yowling."
IC
"Singing the heartsong, I was," Maruman sent haughtily. "A pity equine ears are so dull/crude." (TSK, 762)
So I found the B square. Bidding Maruman sing, I pressed it. He gave a long warbling yowl that would have made my hair stand on end, if it was not already doing so, and when he stopped, I pressed C. (TSK, 966)
IC
Through the transparency of now, the future.Maybe it’s dedicated to Maruman, not Hannah – although either way, Elf is the future, and Cassy knows it.
(In smaller lettering was the dedication) For one who has the courage to see what will come, and hope.
(In smaller lettering still was the name of the creator) Cassy Duprey
What if Maruman’s trying to hint to Elf when he says “Mayhap this dreamform is truer than that othershape I bear� And what if Elf travelled into Maruman’s dream of when he was a kitten – that could be another explanation, and it makes sense of him not recognising her. After all, Elf was dreaming, but she was on the Dreamtrails all the same.I looked down to find Maruman standing beside me, swishing his tail back and forth and gazing at the horizon. I knew I had not merely dreamed his presence for he was far larger and stronger than in his true form, and the slashing marks his coat bore were very like to those great cats which Beforetime books name tyger. This shape was the one he preferred with he entered my dreams of his own will.
IC
‘Mayhap this dreamform is truer than that othershape I bear,’ Maruman sent, and he let out a roar that seemed to shake the stone under us.
‘Louder, in any case,’ I sent. ‘What are you doing in my dream?’
‘The oldOnes say you must not walk dreamtrails without me, ElspethInnle. I must guard you on them, as Gahltha guards your waking trails.’
‘I donot walk the dreamtrails. I do not even know how to find them. I am only dozing a little and dreaming aimlessly.’
‘Dreams may have purposes the dreamer cannot fathom. They are gateways to dreamtrails and may lead also to longsleep,’ Maruman sent.
Beasts called death longsleep and believe it to be connected to sleeping. I did not know if that was true, but dreams could be dangerous things.
‘Just so,’ Maruman sent. ‘Wake now and besafe.’
‘Soon,’ I told him. ‘Do you know what that was flying above the horizon? You said it wasn’t a bird.’
‘Is great winged beast, but is mad and its madness goes out from it along dreatrails like a wind that shudders all it touches. Do not think of it, for doing so will summon it.’
‘Haven’t I already summoned the beast, since it’s in my dream?’
‘You did not summon me, yet I came. Dreams touch other dreams and things may travel from one to theother unbidden. Thatbeast rides its madness like it rides the air and it enters into thosedreams which draw its notice as will yours now you think of it.’
‘I must be thinking of it already, if I can see it,’ I argued.
‘Perhaps it thinks of you,’ he responded, but distantly as if his mind wandered elsewhere. (The Keeping Place, 17-18)
I heard a voice. ‘Merimyn!’So, presumably she is Hannah’s daughter, given Elf's other thought that they look similar.
I turned to see a woman. She seemed familiar and I realised that she reminded me strongly of the stone figure of the frowning girl on Stonehill.(TSK, 705)
So, that makes sense for dreaming of his past, whether or not he's conscious of his present self - I would imagine that it could be either, depending on where he's going.It was almost impossible to probe a sleeping mind unless you knew where the sleeper lay or could make physical contact; even then it was sometimes impossible to enter Maruman's mind. Gahltha had once told me this was because the old cat often went seliga when he slept. This was one of the few beast words I did not understand clearly. It meant something like 'before' and something like 'behind'. (TSK, 26-7)
IC
Yes, how was it possible? Can we work this in? I’m sure it’s got something to do with the nature of the Dreamtrails – perhaps she stumbled upon Maruman when he was seliga, or, as I suggested above, dreaming? (Which I guess could be the same thing!)‘Who are you?’ he asked curiously.
IC
It was Maruman’s mindvoice, but the sharp ironies that enriched his older mindvoice were absent. This was a younger, lighter voice with a constant ripple of kitten mischief threaded through it. I felt a stab of grief, for this was a Maruman I had never known. But how was it possible that I was dreaming of Maruman as a young cat?
‘I have dreamed your face, funaga.’ Maruman sent thoughtfully. (TSK, 705)
We need to come up with an explanation for “his strangely deformed mindâ€. It could have always been like that – he is an alien, after all. It could be a safety issue – he is safer when undetectable. So it could have been intentional, on the part of the aliens, or they could all be like that - I'm sure it would be harder to transform the inner workings of the mind than to change the physical appearance.Most people and beasts were harder to farseek when they were unconscious because dreaming changed their mental signatures, but it could be done and it was less difficult if were physically near. Yet not with Maruman. His strangely deformed mind was so altered in sleep that it was as if he did not exist. (TKP, 56)
IC
So Maruman had to teach Gahltha how to go on the Dreamtrails – interesting, don’t you think? Definitely suggests it's not something that (normal) animals tend to do. And from what Maryon was saying, only advanced futuretellers know about the Dreamtrails, and only because they’ve occasionally stumbled upon them – and besides, the Dreamtrails scare them. Also, what if Gahltha is wrong, and Maruman is not lost in madness, but actually visiting the past, because it helps to restore his mind to clarity? Also, Maruman knew it was coming - so perhaps he chooses to go seliga, either to talk about things relevant to his quest, or in some way to restore his mind.“Maruman/yelloweyes has been gone longlong days,†I sent, wondering as always, why the beasts called a one-eyed cat yelloweyes. Well, I did it just as unthinkingly. Perhaps because, like Dameon, the old cat often saw better than those of us with two eyes.
IC
Gahltha gave me a level look. “He does what he/yelloweyes must.â€
I frowned into his dark eyes. “Do you/Gahltha know where he/Maruman is?â€
“The voices of his chaos/madness call him when they will and he/Maruman must hear them. The strain of guardianship caused the voices to call.â€
I frowned, confused. “Guardianship?â€
â€Of the dreamtrails. I/Gahltha know that it is not easy. Yet I havesworn to Maruman/yelloweyes that I would take his place. I didnot know how until he/yelloweyes showed me. The dreamtrails are strange/dangerous. There are beasts like none that walk the earth on them, and shapes that hide/conceal other shapes, yet one grows better at it.â€
I wondered if I was understanding him correctly. In my mind’s eye, I saw the black horse leap into the dream tunnel, urging me to run while he fought off whatever it was that followed me. Maruman’s H’rayka? A dark unease filled me at the thought that somehow those nightmares were real.
“Are you/Gahltha saying that Maruman yelloweyes asked you to look after me…my mind or my dreams, and then went away in his madness/mindchaos?â€
“Did I not sayso?†(Ashling, 328)
"His pain and his strange mind make him receptive to us and allow us to use him." (The Farseekers, 27)
IC
Okay we should get cracking with the writing now.I agree. Great idea about the structure, and then I think we could just have a short conclusion summing up our ideas. :) I'll help with the writeup this evening when I get back from uni. If you're able to start on it before then, maybe you could pick your favourite aspects of the argument to address, and then I can work on the rest? Either way, here's the suggested aspects of the argument to address, from the Moonfairies - I think we've basically discussed everything, we just need to put it together:
Perhaps we could structure it with an Intro: which includes what our definition of alien is and our argument in 1 sentence.
Then Body: with theorising with evidence interspersed to support it.
1. Define the topic
- how do you interpret your question and clear up any vague terms
2. How this could be possible and how it ties into Elspeth's quest!
- we don't believe in the word 'impossible' So convince us why this is the case!
How does Maruman fit best as ____ and what is the significance of him as this role?
e.g. Alien = unhuman powers?
Ghost = immortality?
Robot = unlimited knowledge database?
Cassy = able to make sure she can help Elspeth properly?
We're sure you can come up with other ideas
3. Present evidence of this from the book
- give us a few examples of how Maruman has demonstrated his uniqueness
Admittedly, points 2 and 3 may overlap somewhat. Just keep in mind the best way to present your answer to make it easier for people to be swayed to your way of thinking ;)
We're saying that the aliens use alien tech to look like earthlings; but if Maruman in alien form is really a tyger - how will we justify the alien tech?I was thinking maybe the below section indicated that he doesn't quite look like a tyger, as the slashing marks are "very like" those of a tyger. Also, I think it would make sense that he would choose the form of a cat on earth (and use alien tech to look like a cat), as Louis says of the Agyllians that "They're rare, and rare things are hunted." A tyger would definitely be hunted.
I knew I had not merely dreamed his presence for he was far larger and stronger than in his true form, and the slashing marks his coat bore were very like to those great cats which Beforetime books name tyger.
The quote proves that the aliens + Galtha (who was taught by said aliens) can "look after" Elf in her dreams - perhaps even directing her dreams.I like that spin on it. :) And we know that Atthis sometimes speaks to Elf in her dreams, but usually only when she's too close to the mindstream, where Ariel and the Destroyer can't go. I wouldn't be surprised if they (or Maruman) are able to subtly direct her dreams - hence her dreams of Cassy, as you were suggesting earlier.
He probably lost an eye while roaming the Dreamtrails rather than being injured in real life. Perhaps the tyger form is his real alien form and he altered his appearance by wishing it on the Dreamtrails.I think his eye got infected and Roland had to remove it? Could have happened on the Dreamtrails though. I like the idea that he could have altered his real physical form while on the Dreamtrails, and had it reflect his real appearance. I wonder if we could use that instead of alien tech for all of the aliens's transformations - although Elf didn't come back with wings after that first time... :-? Of course, it could just take a greater degree of skill and experience on the Dreamtrails than Elf has, in order to change physical appearance in reality.
Of course, it could just take a greater degree of skill and experience on the Dreamtrails than Elf has, in order to change physical appearance in reality.