Putting my two cents worth in on Angina...as someone who's struggled with depression for near on three years now, I can well imagine how he gave up on life, particularly as empaths are more sensitive to other's emotions, and especially to hate. It is painful to think that the Obernewtyn community just gave up on him, but my instinct is that they didn't know how to help him. Remember he was unconscious, few people know how to spirit travel, and healers can heal flesh, not spirit. Elspeth and Darius, I think, were too little too late. What would have happened if they had tried at the beginning, when he first got sick... :(
Ariadne: Wotcha waiting for?
MK: I was hoping since Halina made an appearance that maybe Hawkeye might have wished to swing on by.
Ariadne: Fair enough. [act]waits with MK[/act]
MK: Maybe the next sidebar filler post we may get lucky --
Wow! This is why I love discussing things with people - I feel like that we get so much more out of the story, rather than just a tale to be told.
Continuing on the Angina segment:
Really fascinating to hear everyone's insights on the subject matter. It also starts to raise questions for me about, well then why are some people so sensitive to these issues than other people: is it something that people are able to sort of 'switch on/ off' in reaction too - because pretty sure no-one wants to sit there feeling miserable - but then WHY are some people more affected by things?!?!?
*sigh* I know sorry - not an question that is easily answerable ^.^; but the thought still intrigues me.
At this stage, I wonder if the reason some people 'get so much more involved' is because ... they are satisfied with a 'surface' answer, and want to be able to dig deeper.
Or, perhaps in Angina's case - as an empath, he was able to see the deeper about just how much someone's cruelty made up a person.
:-/ I'm going to leave that there for now, because I don't think I'm communicating across succinctly / clearly my thoughts... mainly it's just something I'll continue to ponder ^.^
I also still wonder about Angina's death - story why, as it felt a bit 'random'... and so then I wonder was it really necessary, but then I also consider, well perhaps 'it a plot device' or 'was it something that gradually unfolded (which then ultimately became a plot device)'
[/ random musings]
& haha - my next thoughts I think may warrant a new thread topic in itself so I might go do that instead - refer to 'The Power of Healing' thread... or some name to that affect haha ^.^;
La la la la la la la la Sidebar filling
I think the whole Angina death scene really set up the whole black sword thing. If Elf had just pulled that out of thin air at a later date it would seem strange, but now she can pull it out (metaphorically) at any point where is is needed. On the whole depression thing, I have suffered depression my entire life. I have been to the point where nothing seems to matter and life is just not worth living. I guess I am one of the lucky ones who got treatment and am now able to cope with depression, but a lot of people don't realise that those odd little chemicals that float around in our brains are there for a reason. I can see where Angina, so badly hurt physically, could lose the will to live in a world full of hate and hurt. It would be very interesting to know how much of that scene was edited out.
May I ask why the sidebar needs filling?
I came across the term 'angina' in a book I was reading on Friday, and decided to look it up. Angina is any pain in the chest characterised by felings of choking or suffocating. Also, angina pectoris, a more specific heart condition. But anyway.
Applying the first definition to our Angina points in some interesting directions. It could be theorised that Angina's heart is suffocated by the hate he experienced. Also interesting is from a depression point of view, chest pain is (for me at least :-/ ) my main symptom. It feels like an elephant is sitting on my heart, and then the pain rises up and chokes me. Point being that if angina is a common symptom of depression, was Angina's fate marked from the beginning? I don't think it's any coincidence that an empath is named after a heart condition. Is it a coincidence that his soul gives up the will to live, choked by the hate of the world?
Cinderella's Prince from Into The Woods : Agony! Beyond power of speech, when the one thing you want, is the only thing out of your reach!
Ahhhh!!!! Poor Rushton! That was such a cruel thing to happen, finally asking her to Bond just an hour before she has to leave! [act]huggles Rushie[/act]. I can't say I cried like I did at the end of Farseekers though, I wish I had, but I was sort of expecting it. Also, I am convinced that they will meet again. :nods:
Theory: We know that Rushton wasn't meant to live to reach Sador and Elf saving him probably disrupted the future in many ways. I think Elf has to believe that she won't see him ever again in order for them to meet again, and that means Rushton has to believe they won't meet again because the two are linked. In evidence for this, I point out that Rushton might already be dead if Elf hadn't saved him and that only happened because she was so afraid for him, the slightest amount of hope would have meant she couldn't fight the machine or whatever it is that forces her to sleep, and if she believed they'd meet again, she'd have had that hope.
Aside from this, Maryon and Atthis will do whatever is necessary to strengthen the best possible future, which may involve Elspeth being ready to put everything on the line. If she believes she can come home to Rushton, she may hold back just a little, which might bring on the second great white. In short: They're only hope is to have no hope.
I also wonder if Atthis hadn't foreseen what would happen on Norseland and known that she would die should Rushton open the door, it's in everyone to try to stay alive, but Atthis really didn't put up much of an argument, I mean, she could have said "It would kill me and then you wouldn't know what to do and that could result in the end of the world", but she didn't.
On Elf being preggers, I thought that for a little bit, but I don't believe it. a) Too...cheesy, b) We saw several moons of Elf on the road and not a symptom, I know she's got all those awesome healing powers and the many injuries could be covering up symptoms so that she didn't notice, but....no. Just no.
There was a very little bit of Reuvan which made me very happy! [act]dances[/act] ;D :rolling:
Hmmm, what else?
I loved the first section at Obernewtyn, but I sort of felt it would have been better to have it at the end of The Stone Key :-/ I'd always imagined prior to TSK that the slipping away would happen at the end of a book and I'd honestly expected that her return from Sador heralded an immediate departure. Don't get me wrong, I was ecstatic that we got to see more of what happens around Obernewtyn like in TKP, and now that I'm older I'm really appreciating the little administrative bits and pieces, but it sort of overshadowed the journey for me. My brain kept going "No, no leaving Rushton, go back and read the first part again, we liked that bit better," instead of appreciating the journey the way I'd have liked to. I've just reread the first part and I'm going to give the book a rest before rereading the other parts so I can appreciate them more this time.
For anyone that got a copy of "The Seeker" (Obernewtyn + Farseekers), was it abridged? If they're planning on doing similar things for the other books, I think it would be interesting to see "The Path from Obernewtyn" abridged onto the end of "The Stone Key" and the rest abridged to the start of "The Red Queen"
Angina's death was so sad, but the things we learned from it strengthened my belief that Funaga doesn't translate as human but some state that humanity is in, ie; being separated from our spirits.
Oh! Did anyone else visualise the efari that got Elf as a Classic Doctor Who Cyberman??? How long do we have to wait until we can make Sending references in comps? I really want to name the 17th Ober Chron "Elspeth Gordie and the attack of the Cyber Penguins" :P *scp*
Loren, the sidebar needs filling because the bit that says "Highlight below to view spoiler" only takes up a portion of the characters which get posted in the Recent Posts column. This means that things can be spoiled for people that haven't started the book and haven't gone into the thread and we don't want that to happen. I think I once had something minor spoiled for me by someone who forgot, but I can't remember what it was, so I doubt it was important :P
On the Eden project, I think it's the city that Jacob and Hannah travelled to and where Elf is currently being held captive. Remember when Doctor Ruth was talking about replacing the cryons every ten years or so? And how the Eden project could run in the absence of humanity? If the efari are humanoid robots and responsible for maintaining the Eden project, then when everything went wrong, they'd adapt their programming to "rescue" any healthy living thing they came across, be it human, wolf or vampire bat. They're probably waiting until they observe that the poisons have disappeared and plan to release the cryons following this.
On the fact that the city had sprung up following the holocaust, is it possible that the facility was in a smaller township but that the efari expanded the facility to save more people and animals and eventually it grew to resemble a city?
Also, such an important project, might they have had multiple facilities about? This one might be Old Scotia since it is surrounded by Blacklands (accounting for the "muteies") and close to the ocean (so that Hannah and Cassie could depart for the Redlands and because Cassie was in her father's facility during the testing of prototype Sentinel). That might make the facility on the west coast the second one which Doctor Ruth spoke of, but could it be possible that there was more than one such facility though she implied there was only one?
I'm also really scared that Ana killing Moss was a foreshadowing of things to come. Like Selmar and Domick being ghosts of Elspeth and Rushton. I'm worried that Jes lived and that Ariel decided to forge him into a reserve weapon should his Norseland plot fail. I think Ariel might pit Jes against Rushton to try and force Elf to fight/kill her brother. :(
Thanks for that Sian, I hadn't realised. I'll make sure to fill the sidebar from now on!
Feeds the side bar chocca.
I'm starting to like the idea of the efari being some kind of robot. Isobelle tweeted about Elf needing to get away from the Tumen, which I presume will now be in TRQ. If the Tumen are the Asian people, then the efari could be robots that woke them after the taint had cleared enough.
Happy Monday, sidebar.
I have a feeling the efari are the Tumen, still. Efari is a name talked about by beasts and spirits, right? Maybe funaga call/ed them Tumen (sort of like, as Sian said, cybermen, who are referred to as human 2.0 sometimes. "Tumen" could be like that: "2.0 men"?
Also because the Asians in RQL have been referred to (by humans) as "The White-faced Lords" - if they're known as Tumen you have to admit its much easier to say and they'd likely call them that instead of WFL?
So basically, my theory is that efari is beastspeech for whatever the Tumen robots represent to beasts? That Elspeth calls them that because it's the only name she knows for them, right now?
Spoilers for Sneding and the Dark Road below.
Just taking this off on a slightly different tangent - does anybody know what the meaning of efari is? I mean IC has been crafty/subtle in naming her characters (e.g. Dell = computers).
Here are some of my theories on the origin of efari. This could be a corruption of "eden + safari" releating to the eden project and the whole saving animals theme. Or efari could also be a corruption of faerie/fairy - relating to their mysterious role or their protective role over the Eden project.
One other thing - does anybody think Hannah Seraphim (Jr.) could be in this city? She did carry her mother's bones there. Do you think she's one of the sleepers in the complex? Just a wild thought.
Welcome to Tuesday, sidebar. Have a sherbet lemon.
Yeap gehdra, I figured that too (I think in this thread :P ) that they'll find both Jacob and Hannah Jr in stasis/kept alive by the efari. Either that or Hannah Jr alive with both Hannah Sr & Jacob's bones (if he didn't make it).
Actually third option...they find Hannah's letter to Jr, and the key? It depends on the significance of the Seraphim bones...
As for what efari means - I think it's trickier than most things being a beast word. Most of the OC beast names aren't interpretable...eg funaga, mornir...
The significance of Jacob being there has to be Cassy's key. As for Hannah, taking her mother's bones...Perhaps Hannah Sr saw that her family's genetic structure would be needed, but saw the future where Rushton dies (if Atthis hadn't saved him) so that none of her ancestors would live...she and Han Jr are backup. Though why Hannah's genes would be needed...perhaps something Reichler-Clinicy. I wish we knew more about what she did there...
Something just occurred to me,
If Atthis was truly responsible for each of the people who journeyed with Elspeth ending up there, then it's really unlikely that any of them are the destroyer. And while we can't be absolutely certain in each case, the only one we'd really call into question would be Dameon and he's been backed up by Maryon. So Dameon isn't the destroyer? :D
fills the side bar... at the rate it's being filled, the side bar is going to collapse :P
Being that I believe Dameon will be bumped off very shortly into TRQ, I have no doubt that you are right Sian. Poor Dames, though will be able to spend his last moments with Elf and finally tell her how he feels.
Sidebar, I didn't want to be the one to tell you this but...I think it's diet time ...
I remember getting a letter from Isobelle aaaages ago when I was still a bright-eyed teenager, and I'd asked if Swallow was the Destroyer. Her answer was along the lines of, he's not but he's the sort or person she'd be thinking of...I might have to track down her letter, I can't remember it exactly :P
Anyway, while my thoughts are well established that Matthew's the Destroyer, I could see Dameon becoming more of a potential. He's in a similar place to Matthew, series-wise. But...I think he'll be there to help Elf in the end, with Matthew, not to be the Destroyer himself.
As for his death - I'm not sure it will happen any more. One, because we all think he will, and since when has anything we thought would happen *actually* happened? And two because Isobelle rarely leads up to a major character death in such an obvious way. Think Domick, Jik, etc. they were all shocks, at least, they were to me. Even when Dom was ill there was always some tiny hope that he'd live. And when he didn't I was like...what?! Had to re-read it to make sure it'd really happened.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is...if Dameon was going to die I don't think we'd be able to pick it. But I think Isobelle wants us to worry about him, to worry he'll be bumped off, and then maybe a different character will die that we had been so blinded (lol) by worry for Dameon that we didn't see it coming *may be projecting*
I think Dameon's place at the end of all this might be with Matthew and Dragon, though. I could see him staying with them to help clean up the pieces once that Land's free.
[act]gifts the sidebar a book on healthy eating[/act]
Upon rereading, at the beginning of the book Elspeth is attacked above the dream trails. She's later told that the destroyer could only rise so high if they were terribly ill. This [strike]clearly means that Miky is the destroyer[/strike] means that we can probably discount anyone who we know was perfectly well at the time. This cuts out Rushton, Dameon etc, but leaves Matthew and Daffyd as possibilities.
Also, on it being stated too explicitly that Ariel is the destroyer, I've looked through and I think Elspeth is the source of all of those comments eg; when Rushton states it, he pulled it from her mind. As such, it was only stated so explicitly because Elspeth thinks it's Ariel.
Sidebar, ever thought about exercising?
It's not just Elspeth that says the Destroyer is Ariel though. I'm sure the wolves said it too. *wishes she still had The Sending so she could check* From memory they said something along the lines that if Innle failed, the world would fall to Ariel, the H'rayka. Can someone confirm this please? (Or prove me wrong, that's fine, I don't have the book anymore...)When the wolves meet her at the SkyLake I think...
I've heard some really good things about cycling...
They actually said "all will come to darkness and destruction at the hands of the dinrai* that tha do call Ariel and tha enemy", but that's not material. Ariel is the H'rayka, that we know, but H'rayka doesn't mean destroyer, it means one who brings destruction. The destroyer could be anybody.
*it's italicised within the text, I wasn't trying to draw emphasis to the word, it's just because it's a beast word I think
maybe sidebar you might consider becoming a swapper - although the life be in it guy was wayyyyy more entertaining that the balloons of hot air ...
Anyway, who says Dameon wasn't sick at the time Elspeth was on the dream trails? Angina shows that you can die of despair or some sort of mental illness, and who amongst Elspeth's long-time friends is coming apart at the seams due to unrequited love for a certain oblivious narrator? I noted in particular the part of the book where elspeth is dreaming and she in inhabiting Dameon's body and he has that flash of hatred for Rushton. It was notable because that was the FIRST time that we'd ever seen inside Dameon's head - we only ever see what he says aloud, and being an empath, he is probably good enough to fool everyone around him as to how he's feeling.
I think Dameon is either creating one of those dangerous mental nets (you know, like Elspeth keeps creating when she's in pain - the ones that can kill you) OR he's using his wikkid skillz on himself - either way, it's all going to go pear-shaped somehow and he'll end up in Ariel's clutches ...
... Perhaps at the pointy end of the quest it will come down to whether they can save Dameon from himself or cure him of his hatred and heartache - if ariel wins, dameon pushes the button, if Elspeth wins, she disarms the machines ... :O
I think I need to go back and read all the destroyer-on-the-dreamtrails quotes. One thing that strikes me is the end of Ashling when Elspeth nearly dies and something pulls her spirit back from the stream. Atthis tells Elspeth that it's the spirit call of 'one who would have her live'. You assume it's rushton because the whole Ravek stuff comes up straight after BUT no one ever says so AND when she wakes up, dameon is there. I need my other books ...
One day we'll compile a thread of 'Conversations with the Sidebar', and full it only with copied bits of sidebar filler, to see if it works as a conversation...
I really like the idea that the beast who attacks her/is sick is emotionally ill, not physically. That would tie well in with, as you said, emotions being enough to kill (Angina).
I think Dameon's momentary hatred of Rushton can be explained as many things. Maybe he's angry about Angina, that he wasn't there and that he blames Rushton for a moment for not organising more help for him. Maybe it's simply so Elspeth can start to (at least attempt to) knot the pieces together regarding Dameon being in love with her.
I don't think it indicates instability of mind. Don't we have - I think Darius? - say that Dameon uses that which he cannot have as a beacon or hope, or something about acceptance...I wish I could remember it exactly. something about that which would make an ordinary man crumble makes Dameon stronger. Bah @ train/work - I want to find this quote!
But I'm still going to go with Matthew being ill, of course (it would almost feel wrong if I didn't at this point in time :P ), thus being the creature at the start trying to get to Elspeth. We have a couple of confirmed mentions of Matthew being sick and that's effected people's dreaming of him at Ober.
Why else mention Matthew's sick at all? It's not like he had any role to play in this book.
If we go with the emotional side of the sickness, we learn in this book how Matthew is ashamed of himself for in that moment in Farseekers when he kissed Dragon. It was clearly eating at him in Ashling, and it may still be eating at him.
Unless saying he's sick is a total red herring, I see it serving no other purpose, other than to elude (once again), or misdirect us into believing that he is the Destroyer.
Another random interjection to say how insanely painful it is to know you are all reading and discussing, whilst I sit in front of a purple spoiler wall. Why do I keep coming on this thread? To torture myself of course :)
Start hassling bookshops - IT'S HERE!! (of course, that's only inf you're lucky enough to live in australia ... sorry)
Good day to you good, Sidebar. I don't believe we have been formerly introduced. I am Sir Groot and it is a pleasure to grace your presence. Would you like a cup of tea?
Anyway, thought it was about time I actually posted in this thread.
So yeah, I've been thinking along the same lines as Nef with the whole Dameon being ill due to his obvious feelings for Elspeth, and his emotions and reactions shown throughout this book just seem to set that in stone for me--I mean even ELSPETH has noticed it to the point that she actually asks if he fought with Rushton. For Eslpeth to notice those kinda things kinda means a lot. It's like we are finally starting to see him crumble--which as much as I hate to say it, it is something I've been waiting for. Despite his empathy and calm wisdom, at the end of the day it's obvious that Dameon can get torn down by his emotions just like anyone else. Angina's death seems to bang in the point as well, with him being another powerful empath effectively being destroyed by his own emotions.
Of course, I'm now less certain he is the Destroyer because of his involvement in the journey but then again I'm not sure if the Destroyer being a part of the group or not is necessarily bad. It's always been said that the Destroyer isn't aware of themselves, and ultimately I only see them becomming so dangerous due to the influence of Ariel. So it would probably make more sense for the Destroyer to be put as far away from Ariel as possible. Going in the opposite direction to the Red Queen's Land would probably be a good idea--but from memory Dameon was meant to stay at Obernewtyn so who knows.
BUH IDK. It'll be him or Matthew, but I don't want it to be Matthew because I'm sentimental and want Dragon to get her beau.
Speaking of all that though, does anybody even actually KNOW who the destroyer is? Has then been a concrete indication that somebody--be it Atthis or Maruman--knows for certain? Or do they just know that the destroyer exists, and know only it's spirit form?
A rambling and incomplete mix of my own thoughts, and reactions to what I've read here...
Nef, Sionann, I like your Dameon theories very much, though they make me sad. Dameon has been most stalwart, constant, serene figure in the series – how powerful and devastating it would be for him to crumble. While Angina’s death was sad, it also seemed a little out of place, not really connecting to the plot. It can’t have just been about introducing the black sword – it has to be relevant to something that happens later on. Dameon’s break down sounds quite plausible. Like Deb, I’m fairly sure he’s not going to survive the last book. Nor will Maruman
Surely even the most stalwart Elspeth/Dameon shippers cannot complain about anything Rushton does in this book. I loved their scenes. Of course the idyllic scenes were designed to make the parting even more tragic, but I must admit, I cried too. That section after she leaves, before she arrives at Skylake, are miserable. Say what you will about the Beasts, they’re not the most upbeat of companions. Anyway, Rushton again. I loved the memories of Selmar, and the times before Elspeth arrived at Obernewtyn. I’ve always been curious about that time – you could tell Selmar had been someone pretty special by the way people felt about her (not to mention her attempts to warn Elspeth even when her mind was a ruin). I’m not sure about this business of downloading all your lover’s memories during sex, though. It all sounds very distracting. I was afraid Elspeth would see Rushton’s knowledge of Dameon’s feelings for her, for a while there. Still, I adored the scene. For someone who has been shipping Rushton/Elspeth for over 15 years, the idyll (however short) was long overdue.
This untapped talent of Rushton’s – it has to play a part at some point. Maybe Elspeth draws upon it, as Gehdabrilane suggested.
I was so relieved when the Skylake meeting happened. Dameon and Swallow are favourites of all of us, and Analivia has been this bundle of potential ever since her brief scene in TKP. It was wonderful getting to know her better. I know there won’t be time for everything in the last book, but I hope we see her heal emotionally from her brother’s abuse, not just get told that it happens. I loved the conversations with Dragon. I thought that the knowledge Dragon carried was the whereabouts of Luthan’s grave, but Elspeth says at some point that she doesn’t know what Dragon is supposed to tell her. Am I forgetting something? Even though I reread the series recently, I still seem to forget or miss things.
Can’t write any more right now, but I will be back.
In response to all the comments about two of our favorite characters - Dameon - I'm in the same place as Lol on this I think. I don't see him dying though, because everyone thinks he will, and because I don't want him to, not for any reason that's been actually given in the books. But it would also just seem like such an unfair cruelty if he, after being the calm throughout the series, Rushton's conscience no less, had to die. Shouldn't those who endure gracefully get some sort of reprieve at the end of the struggle? Or is this me being naive and thinking that good things happen to good people?
And I wanted to reiterate how much this book also swayed me on the Rushton front...I've made no attempts to hide my frustration and disdain of his character, and I still will never forgive him for the 'this is touching' comment. But I loved what we saw of his character here. I loved that he and Elspeth actually got to have a proper, adult relationship and I'm glad that the glares across the courtyard were explained XD I suspect I'd retread this previous bits of him in the series in a different light now!
I has read!!!!! But... But... Spoiler code no worky on ipad sadface poo poo!!! Waaaaaaahhh! I come back later with computer whinge lame!