Hi Everyone! I'm new here but I thought it would be super cool to have a fairly last minute compilation and discussion of what might happen in The Red Queen.
I did a re-read and I thought it would be good to note down all of the signs that Cassy left for Elspeth, Maryon foretold or Elspeth saw in a Truedream and see if all of them together would glean any good insights.
Cassy's message carved into the Obernewtyn door
- I Kasanda have left signs behind me which the Seeker must find before... That key which must be used/found before all else is with she who first dreamed of the Seeker.
I suppose this is most likely the key lying with Jacob and Hannah I in the Shining City of the Efari.
- who would enter the Sentinel will seek the words in the home where my son was born
"I come unto thee Sentinel. Judge my hand and let me pass, for all I have done was in your name."
I read this as likely to mean that Elspeth will need to use her handprint to pass through a door?
- That which will reach the centre of Sentinel seals a pact which I did forge but never witnessed.
"When one door is closed, another may open.
Luthen's code is Luthen's heart"
- That which will open the darkest door lies where the ..... Sleeps. Strange is the Keeping Place of this dreadful sign but there is no other, for all who know it are dad, save one, who does not know what she knows. Seek her past.... Only through her may you go where you have never been and must someday go.... Danger.... Beware.... Dragon
For this part of it, it sounds like the sign is almost certainly on the grave marking of Luthen because when Elspeth enters Dragon's dream sequence her mother implores Dragon to remember the day she showed her his grave.
I read someone theorise that the Stone Key will be used on it because the Temple Overguardian tells Elspeth that she will return it to her true master. Notably, Dragon was asleep when Elspeth shows the key to everyone on the quest in The Sending.
Glass Statue in the Reichler Centre Reception
"Through the transparency of now, the future.
For one who has the courage to see what will come and to hope"
To be honest, I read this as directed from Cassy to Hannah as a heartfelt gift because of all that Hannah has seen and the sorrow she must be enduring.
The design of the statue is Elspeth surrounded and protected by a dragon and surrounded by animals. This motif comes up elsewhere for Elspeth too.
- The shawl that the Futuretellers make Elspeth, based on a vision from Maryon includes a "Tyger with flaring eyes, a rearing black horse and a small pony, a dad dog and a white one, three silver eyed wolves and... A dragon hovering over the rest."
- Dell dreams of "... You ElspethInnle. I saw you walking with a great horde of animals into the deepest blacklands"
Timeline
Based on Elspeth's dreams and The Dark Road the timeline for Hannah I and II, Cassy and Jacob could be (where GW is Great White and AA is after their awakening from stasis):
~ -3 GW Cassy goes to the Government Complex which her dad runs. She meets the Aggylians for the first time and is to find Hannah. She also paints them and creates a logo for them.
~ -3 GW Cassy meet Hannah I who is running the Reichler clinic low key and tells Cass-dawg all about Misfitting and saving the prisoners and the impending GW
~ -3 GW Cassy tells her Tiban lover about Hannah and the GW and he goes back to Tiban to find proof of atrocities only to end up murdered :(
~ -2 GW all/some of the prisoners in the Government complex are emancipated and join them in the Obernetyn valley. The Eden project is happening and may be connected to Sentinel through a computer program called 'guardian addendum'- it is certainly in a near location to it too.
~ -1GW Hannah, Cassy and potentially Maruman must negotiate their stasis in he lead up to the GW. Instructions are left for those at Obernewtyn to remain in the building as it will be safe.
0 GW Hannah speaks to Jacob one last time, telling him to keep the key safe no matter what. She is currently pregnant with his child. Hannah II
20-30 GW Jacob leaves on the horrible quest to the Pellmar Quadrants.
0 AA Hannah and Cassy wake up and look at the remains after the GW on computer screens which reveal that the Chinon Empire is untouched but most other places decimated.
0 AA Hannah, Cassy and the other misfits with them sail to the Red Land (according to the Dark Road)
5 AA Cassy and Luthen are bonded and she is pregnant, he is murdered by slavers. Cassy and Hannah explain all of the salient details about the Seekef to Aquilla, The Red Queen, and leave for the Land.
6-7 AA Hannah I leaves and heads up to Guanette
24 AA Hannah II leaves Stonehill and heads up to Guanette. Cassy is taken by Gadfians, she has spent her time prior to this setting the scene for the gypsies future and the signs for The Seeker.
24- ? Cassy is in Gadfia getting her hands on the tech necessary to create the crystal chamber in Sador. She is suffering greatly at the hands of the slavers to protect the women with her and to continue her quest for The Seeker.
? AA Cassy is taken to Sador and lives her later years carving the glorious Earthtemple, helping the Sadorians set up a society and preparing the USB pass-code thingy for Elspeth and Maruman.
? AA Hannah II goes to Obernewtyn and carries her mothers bones to the Pellmar Quandrants.
? AA Cassy leaves Sador and goes on one last journey.
These are my speculations:
- Ariel is the son of Henry Druid. The descriptions of him sound so like him. Pale, pleasing to the eyes, hypnotising. And he definitely had a son at some stage and perhaps he couldn't bring himself to kill his own Misfit child and instead sent him to Obernewtyn. Maybe that's part of his curiosity for the place being destroyed by the Firestorm in Farseekers, Perhaps Ariel straight up wanted revenge on him when he discovered his parentage and a Firestorm is a brutal mean to achieve that.
- Lidgebaby is the Destroyer because of Ariel's sick manipulations and general grossness. There are to things that stand out to me for this theory:
1 "What would happen when he grew up and became conscious of the power he wielded? I shuddered, seeing them smile in the collective memory of that first enslavement/wakening of their Misfit minds." The Farseekers,
2 [while Elspeth is hanging out on the Dreamtrails] "Then a shadow fell over me... I flung back a probe to discover what hunted me but could find no mind to engage, there was only a vast gaping darkness full if brutish thrashing power." - The Sending, page 4
The mindless quality to the emanations that follow her on the Dreamtrails reminds me strongly of Lidgebaby's mindless emanations over the Druid encampment. Like he still hasn't quite fully realised his own power but he wants to hurt Elspeth.
- Sentinel is on the Red Land which is part of the same Island as The Land and Sador. Elspeth and the gang will journey there after the Pellmqr Quadrants.
"'What lies beyond the Red City?'
'A dry sting plain girdled by a broken arc of rocky hills. The mines are within these hills... Beyond the hills is a great plain split here and there by enormous fissures. Beyond that is an enormous sandy desert and beyond that, barely visible is a range of mountains. Beyond that is said to be more desert lands. The Red Land is vast but the whole of it is barren of water save for the area around the Red City, which is built on a great number of springs.'" -The Sending, page 181-182
I don't know if these bits and pieces will help out with theorising, but yeah. Gosh darn, I'm so bloody excited for The Red Queen and I just want to discuss with someone!
- Loopy
Really interesting to see this all laid out like this.
Lidgebaby makes sense that he could 'trap' Elspeth like he did in that dream, but IC definitely said at some point that the Destroyer was in Obernewtyn, which Lidgebaby wasn't (unless he's there very sneakily).
And Ariel, it is an interesting thought, and could explain some things, he would have had to be whisked away before Gilaine (and the other one) came along - though perhaps not since they didn't discuss him at all (?)
I had thoughts that maybe they would use a train to get to the Red Queen's Land since that seemed to be implicated in Dragon's coma sequence. Or I thought maybe the Agyllians would take them over the sea. OR, they end up making it to the Spit at the same time. TOO MANY POSSIBILITIES
As for the Destroyer I'm split between wanting it to be Jes (but knowing that it probably isn't given Isobelle's hints - plus I want more character development for the Destroyer - but he'll still pop up), Matthew (but thinking he's just the red herring) and maybe Daffyd (if the others aren't right)
Yay thank you for replying!!
I've been thinking about Daffyd a lot lately because in my re-read it stuck out to me how much he turns up. He's there in every book at crucial moments or serendipitously rocking up in Sador. By and large Elspeth's instincts are a good radar and she gets good vibes from him, however she can be a fairly unreliable narrator. Like when she first met Rushton and misunderstood her love for fear. When Daffyd and Elspeth first met he was so open and receptive to her in the Councilcourt that I was suspicious. He even led her to the Druid in the future. Perhaps he truedreamed meeting her would be important.
Also I've read a few times the speculation that Louis Larkin is a before timer who was in stasis and after re-reading Obernewtyn I kind of get that impression too. He knows a lot more than he's saying and he knows a damn lot about the before time. Perhaps he was supposed to wait in Obernewtyn and just make sure that things happened to pave the way for the seeker when she arrived there. Make sure the doors were up Jacob's grave eventually located etc.
Unrelated but, I wonder if Selmar was initially considered by Louis Larkin to be the seeker and therefore he was very protective of her. 'The hope of Obernewtyn'.
Also, since re-reading Obernewtyn, Jes's killing power HAS to be significant. it's what sets Elspeth apart from every misfit and seer before her and it cannot be a coincidence that her kinda dickhead older brother could do it too before allegedly dying.
MOAR THOUGHTS: I wonder if Scatterlings was written in the same mind frame as when IC conceived of the over-arching story of Obernewtyn. Entina being the computer that the slavers/ the destroyer have been trying to open but instead it engages the defence systems of Sentinel and kills the miner that has been sent down. Whereas Elspeth has the killing ability and also formidable other Talents so she can engage Sentinel through its 'mind' and kill it.
My brain is exploding! One more week!
I'm currently re-reading the series and pages 110-111 of The Keeping Place made me curious. Sentinel means like a guard/guardian. We know that we're dealing with beforetime machines. On pg 110, the man in the 'dream' mentions the Guardian Program, which has 'access to all the world's information sources' and if it detects acts of aggression from a country/group, it will activate BOT to 'retaliate, targeting the perpetrators'. Cassy then asks: "What if your precious guardian makes a mistake?'
What if the guardian program did make a mistake and used BOT to abolish most of the world? Perhaps it was manipulated? And perhaps it is Sentinel, which Elspeth must access in order to destroy BOT.
Then again, maybe I'm reading too much into it and maybe it's not entirely related. But it was mentioned for a reason, I'm sure.
I'm sure others have guessed this before but I'm also thinking that the so-called 'monster' in the Red Queen's Land is a machine, like the one in Book 1 that uses Talented misfits to seek information. In fact it could be Sentinel or BOT. But I'm still at the beginning of The Keeping Place and it's been a long time so I'm sure more will make sense as I catch up to with the rest of the books.
Mystic Ward
9 years ago
Mystic Ward
Twentyfamilies Gypsy
I can't see Ariel as Henry Druids son as the son's were older. It is mentioned in one of the US editions that he is Alexi's son.
I thought that he was Alexi's son was just a rumour?
Yeah, I remember reading that, Elspeth mentions that there was a rumour he was alexi's son but he started it himself, likely to differentiate himself from the other misfits.
In Obernewtyn Madam Vega says to Ariel "'you forget yourself, Ariel... You have proved useful since your arrival at Obernewtyn as a Misfit. But do not forget your place...'" - Obernewtyn page 231
But he might still be Alexi's kid from another mother and he's been tricking Madam Vega.
Also, as an aside, damn I'd like some back story on those two, why would Madam Vega be so interested in Marissa's research? She married into the whole thing so she can't have known before moving to Obernewtyn what was afoot. How did Alexi's find an equally mad wife?
That's very useful to see the timeline laid out like that! With your comments about Daffyd, Loopy (I hope it's ok to call you that!), even though Elspeth gets good vibes from him that wouldn't stop him from being the Destroyer, especially if the Destroyer triggers things accidentally, which is my preferred view of the whole thing, especially if it's going to be a good character and not someone easily hate-able. And Malini, I think it is definitely Sentinel that she must access, as Cassy's signs and clues are claimed to give her access to that program in particular.
Daffyd makes sense to me as a candidate for the Destroyer because in TF Atthis tells Elspeth that the destroyer's path 'intersects with' hers, and Daffyd is always intersecting with her, unlike Matthew and Rushton who are with her for long periods of time ...but I don't have a strong view on the Destroyer's identity
I doubt Ariel is the Druid's son, he hates mistifts, even Gilaine is afraid of him finding out the truth about her, so I doubt he would allow his own misfit son back into the camp let alone become his spy.
I'm still convinced that Sentinel is Enita (from Matthew's dreams) since no one has actually contradicted the futuretelling of Elspeth and Dragon in the Red Land.
I'm actually more likely to consider Rushton as the Destroyer than anyone else, mainly because his talent is the true opposite of Elspeth's being a talent that is in essence a lack of talent. Daffyd does make sense, as does Matthew though, but Rushton would make for great drama when the reveal happens given Elspeth has shown him everything she knows before she leaves Obernewtyn...
The question of the Destroyer is a really hard one! The people who seem most obvious like Arial or Jes have pretty much been confirmed to not be the Destroyer. So I'd also say Rushton is more likely but at the same time I like to think that the Destroyer has been on a journey to find the weapon machines just as Elspeth has and none of our favourite characters have been on that quest.
To me the 'equal opposite' clue would make me think either someone with full empathy or someone with the same powers and strengths as Elspeth but with a crazy power hungry side. That's why I would have said Jes if IC hadn't made it clear it wasn't him.
Rushton would make for great drama but Im not sure I'd put him in the equal opposite category. We'll find out soon though!
Kelly and Iriny, I really like what you've said about Daffyd. Ariel's path doesn't seem to intersect her, more like she follows his footsteps. Elspeth goes to the Druid camp after Ariel, Herder Isle, Norseland and Halfmoon Bay (to save the West Coast from the plague) all after he's finished up his deeds in those places. Whereas Daffyd materialises serendipitously everywhere Elspeth goes. And yeah, call me Loopy! It's my SOs nickname for me.
I'm kinda hoping for Rushton to be the next Agyllian Eldar as someone else on this site has pointed out; his one power is an immense cavern of potential which can host 100+ minds and he's critically ill at the moment so he can be flying really high over the Dreamtrails. But Maruman says that they are seeking 'her' out in TS so likely the Eldar is a female.
Wow, I would never even have thought of that. His latent talent definitely has a role to play.
Perhaps the Destroyer will be someone who really wants revenge on the Herders, Council, Slavers etc. Daffyd could certainly be driven to wanting to use a weapon to wipe them out, without realising the true devastation it would cause.
Oh my goodness, totally!!! I can picture Elspeth trying to talk him down and explain that the weapon machines will wipe out everything and Daffyd being completely unreasonable with rage for all the horrible things that have happened to the ones he loves!
What if IC just wants us to come up with super complicated theories but in the end it turns out the destroyer was Ariel all along haha
That is definitely a possibility, but it would be a let down for non theorists who's natural assumption would have been Ariel in the first place. And Isobelle said it's someone that no one has guessed, and people have guessed Ariel. I CAN'T BELIEVE IT'S OVER! [act]cries[/act]
Actually Rushton could be the new Eldar, Elspeth is shocked when Maruman tells her that the new Eldar will be a he.
So who from the first book hasn't anyone guessed as the Destroyer? I'm pretty sure I've seen Matthew, Daffyd, Rushton, Dameon, Domick, Ariel, and Jes guessed before... Could Stephen find his way back into the story in such a critical role? He did pop back up kind of randomly as a mention in TS, Perhaps we will get to the truth of whether Lukas was in any way descended from Rushton as a result...
I mean descended from Hannah
I just need to work out how Stephen is going to find himself in the Red Land given he's been living with Enoch...
I like this theory, it's sad but not heartbreaking, and Stephen would easily fall back under Ariel's manipulations as his mind would have to be well and truly conditioned to do so
Enoch? lol that would be so random
Not Enoch, Stephen, Rushton's half-brother, AKA the Doctor
Yeah I know. We posted at the same time. I meant Enoch is someone that nobody has guessed from the first book.
This is also true, and I'm pretty sure he's had a mention in every book. I can see us going back through and checking every male mentioned in Obernewtyn for a possibility...
