OOH, maybe we can justify it by saying that the aliens are TOO sensitive to emotions; and Maruman dislikes human emotions because he is so sensitive; and humans are emos all the time :P (no offense to emos)...Great ideas! :D And the idea of the aliens being too sensitive to emotions is kind of what I meant, but unfortunately I wasn't very clear! ::) I like both of your suggestions, though, and I think we could go with either. I'll find some Maruman emotion quotes in the morning. ;)
OR maybe because the aliens are of such superior intelligence; emotional AND intellectual; they aren't required to be as emotional as humans are, and Maruman dislikes human emotions because they get in the way of rational decision making.
‘…these Misfits seem to value all life and this is strange for us to contemplate. But think you this. You rebels opposed alliance with the Misfits because you thought them monsters and inhuman. Ask yourselves now which team has this day shown the keenest humanity and which has shown itself to be more monstrous.’ (499)
IC
It's quite possible that these 'beasts like none that walk the earth' are in fact other aliens in their true forms, and that they use the Dreamtrails so that they can be themselves.'until he/yelloweyes showed me. The dreamtrails are strange/dangerous. There are beasts like none that walk the earth on them, and shapes that hide/conceal other shapes, yet one grows better at it' (Ashling, 328).
IC
We propose that when Maruman is seliga he is often 'before' or 'back' in time (including the Beforetime), and as such is dreaming of his past. Of course, these dreams may be either lucid or passive, which would explain why Merimyn did not really know who Elspeth was – Maruman is not always conscious of his present self. We have seen that sometimes he speaks to the Agyllians, and perhaps he also goes to the past to speak with Cassy or Hannah, which could explain why he often comes back with his mindvoice 'clear and incisive again', and also why he often knows more of Elspeth's quest when he returns.‘It was almost impossible to probe a sleeping mind unless you knew where the sleeper lay or could make physical contact; even then it was sometimes impossible to enter Maruman's mind. Gahltha had once told me this was because the old cat often went seliga when he slept. This was one of the few beast words I did not understand clearly. It meant something like 'before' and something like 'behind'.’(TSK, 26-7)
IC
The Dreamtrails are a place that was discovered and made use of by the aliens. It is evident that the Dreamtrails are neither fully known nor understood by humans; Maryon calls them 'dreamrapids' and says that they are known only to advanced futuretellers. They are not even known by most beasts, as Gahltha explains that he did not know how to walk the dreamtrails
IC wrote ...
'until he/yelloweyes showed me. The dreamtrails are strange/dangerous. There are beasts like none that walk the earth on them, and shapes that hide/conceal other shapes, yet one grows better at it' (Ashling, 328).
We suggest that these 'beasts like none that walk the earth' are in fact other aliens in their true forms, and that they use the Dreamtrails so that they can be themselves. This part can probably go above in the alien's real form near the start
In fact, we suggest that Maruman himself does this when he goes seliga. Maybe we could make this shorter; i cut down some of the quote
IC wrote ...
‘...it was sometimes impossible to enter Maruman's mind. Gahltha had once told me this was because the old cat often went seliga when he slept. This was one of the few beast words I did not understand clearly. It meant something like 'before' and something like 'behind'.’(TSK, 26-7)
We propose that when Maruman is seliga he goes 'before' or 'back' in time (including the Beforetime); dreaming of his past. We suggest that sometimes he speaks to the Agyllians, or goes to the past to speak with Cassy, which would explain why he often comes back knowing more of Elspeth's quest when he returns.
our justification would be utterly complete if we could just include everything!!!I agree entirely! Sorry I haven't posted anything else - I think your suggestions are great, and I've had a look for a few more quotes relevant to our argument. Got slightly sidetracked, but I think it's relevant, even if it does only end up as a short point. :-? (Sorry if I'm not making sense. ~:|)
"Maruman knows dreamtrails. Knows where doors are/were.""Real are things on them" - now that could be useful. Also his comment on the nature of the dreamtrails, that they allow people to reach the past, present and future.
"You mean your memory of the doors," I sent kindly as if he were a halfwit muddling things up.
"All that is/was/can be can be reached by dreamtrails. Real are things on them."
(TKP, 118)
"...I remembered that in Maruman's strange mind, all levels merged and flowed." (TKP, 206)After Elf drew on the mindstream:
"I had the distinct sensation of the mindstream and all of those levels of my mind that it ran through. It was like hearing the distant babble of many voices, and I realises this must be what Maruman heard constantly, this mad seductive babble." (TKP, 207)
"I seemed to have no proper feeling for it, but the second I touched Maruman, I felt myself absorbed by his form and grace. He gathered himself, leaped, and went on rising. It struck me suddenly that I had never used my Talent to rise from the point of consciousness before. Always I had descended. How much would our minds be capable of, I wondered, if we would only know them better?" (TKP, 208)
'Your anger burns me,' the bird complained. (TKP 424)
"'How is it that you can ... can do this?' Cassy stammered.
'Manythings they did to us/me. Many wearypainful things,' the bird's tone held a residue of anguish that was almost palpable. 'Funaga donot think birds feel/fear/think.'
'You ... you're using telepathy, aren't you?'
'Something like. Something very like. But word too little. Too limited.'
'You made me want to paint you, didn't you?' Cassy asked with a touch of fear. 'You put the idea into my head.'
'Not put. Found thought. Amplified and nourished. Cannot/willnot make.'
Cassy licked her lips doubtfully.
'No trick,' the bird insisted.
'You ... you said you wanted my help. Do you want me to set you free?'
The bird gave the avian equivalent of a sigh. 'O freedom. Yes. But there is a more important doing needed. In thisplace there are others.'
'I might manage to get you out, but I doubt I could get to your friends and free them without being arrested. All of the experimental animals are locked in the labs.'
'Friends yes. Not beast. Not avian. Human/funaga.'
'You have human friends here?' (TKP, 423)
'Telepaths, you would call/say them. Like you.'
'I'm not telepathic,' Cassy laughed self-depreciatingly. 'Believe me I'd love it if I was. I even went to one of those centres after I read that Reichler Clinic book about paranormal abilities. They tested me and found zilch.'
'Donot know tests. Not know zilch. Know only couldn't reach your wakingmind if not receptive.' (TKP, 423-4)
"One woman must be told they are here. If more know they would be moved or killed. You must let her know." (TKP, 425)
"Govamen are using flamebirds for their experiments, which naturally outrages animal welfare groups as the birds are virtually on the edge of extinction. The director of the institute handling the research says scientists chose the birds for the very qualities which have brought it to the edge of extinction. They are not the cause." (TKP, 272).
"The birds are the remnants of an older phase of a long-term experiment that continues to this day. Flamebirds are actually the result of cloning in the last century. They possess certain natural properties that make them idea for genetic manipulation of the brain and frontal lobe. That is the seat of paranormal abilities. Unfortunately the bird is unable to reproduce swiftly, so it is on the verge of extinction [...] The birds were subjected to various treatments and even to further cloning in some cases, but it was discovered that you can only develop a bird mind so far. Ultimately they lack certain ... qualities that exist in say the human mind. This bird and the others you saw were not subjected to the more drastic phases of experimentation because they were the control group. [...] [The others] were vivisected and subjected to autopsy." (TKP, 127)
I propose that the Agyllians allowed themselves to be subjected to tests because they knew that the Govamen would be involved in the development of Talent amongst humans, and that it would allow them to meet Cassy/Hannah. They clearly knew that it was important that the "trashers" get out of there. So basically I think we could claim that the Agyllians knew that they needed to be in the Govamen complex, and so allowed the Govamen humans to get to them (and even clone them?). They needed to learn about the paranormal humans, and to be able to send Cassy to find Hannah.
Thought this was interesting for our discussion of ways the aliens have a superior mental capacity and ability to use their minds - this was on the Dreamtrails:
"I seemed to have no proper feeling for it, but the second I touched Maruman, I felt myself absorbed by his form and grace. He gathered himself, leaped, and went on rising. It struck me suddenly that I had never used my Talent to rise from the point of consciousness before. Always I had descended. How much would our minds be capable of, I wondered, if we would only know them better?" (TKP, 208)
"When I was in the Oldplaces, I dreamed of the Old One. She said I must follow you. It was my task." (Ober, 29-30) It kind of supports our seliga theory - when he was in the Blacklands he went seliga - he dreamed of the Agyllians. The word "Oldplaces" in reference to the Blacklands (presumably, although maybe that's not what he means) is interesting, as I don't recall Maruman using that word at any other time.
Sounds great - love the idea of the aliens all coming when they're needed! :D And we might still be able to claim that Maruman has lived longer than a normal cat (he's been old the whole time Elf has known him), but you're right that he can't have come with the Agyllians - after all, we did see him as a kitten with Hannah's daughter. Oh, and speaking of Merimyn, I guess that we could argue that when he came he was young (as an alien), so his form was that of a young cat? |:|We could modify it by saying that the aliens all travelled to earth via the Dreamtrails when they were needed. Otherwise Maruman couldn't possibly live as long as all those generations of (centuries!) of Agyllians did.
Mono
Yes, I think that's about right, although perhaps we shouldn't go along with my theory that Elf has gypsy blood and is descended from Cassy or the "trashers" - after all, the only quote we have for "proof" is Garth in Elf's dream. ::) Oh, and maybe the Agyllians' role was also so the future gypsies could help Elf - I wonder how far ahead they saw... [act]ponders[/act]So, each alien had a role to play.
Mono
The Agyllians: to get Cassy and Hannah together; and rescue the trashers, so that Elspeth could be born.
True - very good point! :D I temporarily forgot that part earlier! ~:| We could maybe have a quote or two - as Nerat said:I'm pretty sure we can say that the Agyllians amplified Talents - as Nerat taught Elf how to heal her body. This is part of the alien's superior intelligence. They have a deeper, practised understanding of how the mind works, and how to manipulate the mind.
Mono
Also Elf's thoughts as it's happening:"Your body must be taught to repair itself and build its immunities. That is a simple matter of teaching, and can be done even as I drain the mental poisons." (The Farseekers, 264)
IC
'Ocassionally I was aware of Nerat's mind weaving a pattern in my thoughts as complex and intangible as smoke in the wind.'
IC
Here's a quote to support that last point -I think the OldOne may be referring to Hannah or Cassy or maybe Atthis. But that quote is really good because it defines Maruman's task, and his role as an alien. I also think the reference to the Oldplaces means Beforetime places - he could only know they were beforetime places if he had seen them in the beforetime. I agree - he goes seliga to get the messages from the people who were alive in the Beforetime."When I was in the Oldplaces, I dreamed of the Old One. She said I must follow you. It was my task." (Ober, 29-30) It kind of supports our seliga theory - when he was in the Blacklands he went seliga - he dreamed of the Agyllians. The word "Oldplaces" in reference to the Blacklands (presumably, although maybe that's not what he means) is interesting, as I don't recall Maruman using that word at any other time.
Zieria
Maruman makes references to "remembering" the Great White -supports our ideas that he was alive in the Beforetime. Mono
And your points about the Old One and the Oldplaces are brilliant! :D I love the idea that the "Old One" here isn't necessarily Atthis - after all, Maruman normally calls Atthis "the OldOnes", because he senses 'the many behind the one'. And the Oldplaces as Beforetime places makes a lot of sense, especially as the Kinraide orphanage is near the weirwoods, which we know is near Beforetime ruins. Ooh, and Maruman and Elf sometimes call the Beforetime "the Oldtime" in Ober, so that also supports your theory that the Oldplaces are from the Beforetime! :D'Maruman said he "remembered" the Great White, and though that was impossible, he wove remarkably frightening pictures of a world in terror.' (Obernewtyn, 28)
IC
Not sure if we can use these quotes - I think we have better quotes on Maruman's role - but they do tie Maruman together with Elf and the Agyllians. :)'Another time he confessed a Guanette bird had told him his destiny was twined with mine. This bird was a rather obscure symbol that appeared to have risen since the holocaust, representing an oracle-like wisdom or a pre-ordained order of things, themselves archaic symbols from the Oldtime. The odd thing about the Guanette bird was the lack of origin for the legends surrounding it, and the whole meaning and reason behind the myths was a subject favored among scholars. In fact, there was such a bird, but it was said to be almost if not completely extinct. Maruman quite often attributed his insights or notions to the direct intervention of the mythical wise bird.' (Obernewtyn, 24)
IC
Sounds like a plan - it will be simpler, which should hopefully help it be more convincing! :D And although I agree that we don't need to include it, that's a good point about Maruman hating anyone wanting to ressurect the Beforetime weaponmachines! :)So we need to modify our argument in relation to the Moon and why maruman hates it. We could still say that he hates it because the weaponmachines are on there. We should say that he watches the moon for any further signs of activities and also for anyone who has an intention to revive them.
Mono
I think Maruman hates anyone associated with bringing the weaponmachines back to life - hence his dislike of the "she" who you say is Madam Vega. So we don't really need to include the "she" part in our argument. And maybe we should leave out INES is on the moon too.
Oh, and speaking of Merimyn, I guess that we could argue that when he came he was young (as an alien), so his form was that of a young cat?
they are EVERYwhere - nosy, manipulative creatures. like the puppeteers, with humans attached to their strings :PHehe, yes, and with animals attached to their strings as well! :P
'"Time does not care about you, ElspethInnle. Nor thisbarud, nor any who dwell here. It cares nothing for thisworld nor for yourquest to save it..." His mindvoice had taken on a fey tone that chilled me, and he turned to stare out at the moon newly risen above the jagged horizon.And here's a useful quote on Maruman, especially the final sentence:
It was fat and red. An ominous moon, almost full.
"Maruman..."
"The moon waits," Maruman sent distantly. "The H'rayka waits. The glarsh waits. All wait for ElspethInnle to walk the darkroad."' (TKP, 753-4)
'I did not know how old he was, but he had not been a kitten when I had first overheard his mental thoughts at the Kinraide orphanage, and I wondered, as I had done countless times since, where he had been born, and how he had come to Kinraide. The most likely thing was that he was the survivor of a farmer's attempt to drown an unwanted litter, but that beginning, however traumatic, would not explain the strange distortions of his mind. It was possible, of course, that he had simply been born as he was, just as I had been born Misfit. Perhaps I would ask Atthis about his origin when next she communicated with me. After all, the Agyllian mystic ruthlessly used the old cat's distorted mind as a conduit because the distortions meant that he could not be spied upon.' (TSK, 42)(I would suggest that the Agyllians can't be spied upon as well, possibly because their minds are also different - although they don't seem to have Maruman's madness, maybe their minds are simply too advanced to allow anyone to spy on them. We may not need to say anything about the Agyllians' minds anyway, though.)
'I had agreed, despite knowing Maruman would be annoyed with me if he woke, for he found human emotions irritating.' (TKP, 251)From TSK:
'"I know emotions disturb you," I beastspoke the old cat tersely, "but unfortunately they are as much a part of us as our bones. We can't set them aside to please you, even if we wished it."So basically I guess we could say that he is too sensitive and they discomfort him?
Not even to please ourselves, I thought privately.
"They are untidy/disturbing." Maruman responded with a fastidious mental shudder that was rather like having someone sneeze inside your head.' (TSK, 41)
I've actually read it all properly it all suddenly makes sense, who would have thought ... (excluding something about xmas presents and Agyllians...
Haha - love it! XD Well, sadly I didn't even notice it was wrong - looks like I just read it as experiments! ::)yeah - experiments / xmas presents. potato pot-ato. After midnight, it's all the same :P
Mono
Sorry - I really wasn't trying to make you feel bad! But I guess we can enslave you or something if that will make you feel better? ;DPlease don't say thanks to me!! You're meant to be enslaving me remember... Eek all of this is just fuelling my guilty conscience ~:|
Smuppet
Zieria
Sorry - I really wasn't trying to make you feel bad! But I guess we can enslave you or something if that will make you feel better? ;D
Hey Smuppet :) It's okay there's no need to fret - I stumble over those wordy things...sentences too :PYeah, I sometimes have problems articulating wordy thingies as well, although I'm usually not quite as bad in writing - speaking on the other hand... |:| Earlier tonight I went to say "prawn crackers" and instead said "crawn prackers". ::) (Random factoid for you! :P)
Maruman fits best as an alien because he is clearly a physical, corporeal being. He feels real when Elspeth touches him, he can be injured, and we saw him as a young cat centuries in the past. All of this points to him being a physical being, yet something more than an ordinary cat. We propose that Merimyn was preserved until Elspeth's time by being cryogenically frozen in the Beforetime so that he would wake in time to help Elspeth in her quest.'"Your body must be taught to repair itself and build its immunities. That is a simple matter of teaching, and can be done even as I drain the mental poisons."' ... 'Occasionally I was aware of Nerat's mind weaving a pattern in my thoughts as complex and intangible as smoke in the wind.' (The Farseekers, 264)
IC
Maruman also subtly directs Elspeth's dreams to Cassy and Hannah and the Beforetime, to teach her about her quest.'"Are you/Gahltha saying that Maruman yelloweyes asked you to look after me ... my mind or my dreams, and then went away in his madness/mindchaos?"
IC
'"Did I not sayso?"' (Ashling, 328)
We propose that these 'beasts like none that walk the earth' are in fact aliens in their true forms.'"until he/yelloweyes showed me. The dreamtrails are strange/dangerous. There are beasts like none that walk the earth on them, and shapes that hide/conceal other shapes, yet one grows better at it."' (Ashling, 328)
IC
'I seemed to have no proper feeling for it, but the second I touched Maruman, I felt myself absorbed by his form and grace. He gathered himself, leaped, and went on rising. It struck me suddenly that I had never used my Talent to rise from the point of consciousness before. Always I had descended. How much would our minds be capable of, I wondered, if we would only know them better?' (TKP, 208)
IC
So the dreamtrails can be used to see the past, present and future, which leads into our next point: we maintain that Maruman uses the dreamtrails when he goes seliga, going back in time to speak to others of his role in Elspeth's quest.'"Maruman knows dreamtrails. Knows where doors are/were."
IC
'"You mean your memory of the doors," I sent kindly as if he were a halfwit muddling things up.
'"All that is/was/can be can be reached by dreamtrails. Real are things on them."'
(TKP, 118)
We propose that when Maruman is seliga he is often 'before' or 'behind/back' in time, and is dreaming of his past (including the Beforetime). These dreams may be either lucid or passive, which explains why Merimyn was not conscious of his present self. We suggest that sometimes he speaks to the Agyllians, and other times goes to the past to speak with Cassy, which would explain why he often comes back knowing more of Elspeth's quest when he returns.'It was almost impossible to probe a sleeping mind unless you knew where the sleeper lay or could make physical contact; even then it was sometimes impossible to enter Maruman's mind. Gahltha had once told me this was because the old cat often went seliga when he slept. This was one of the few beast words I did not understand clearly. It meant something like 'before' and something like 'behind'.' (TSK, 26-7)
IC