yeah, stay away from me with that saline, though it was a stroke of genius that trick i must say. something so simple, to get it all out of her, and if anyone complained "oh i was just cleaning her wounds, didnt want them to get infected or anything" or something along those lines
Keeper of the Sherbet Lemons
18 years ago
Keeper of the Sherbet Lemons
Guildmember
So, how about Characters in general, i'd love to hear about some of the difficulties people have with their characters. How they create them, how do you shape them? (with lots of moulding clay! [img]http://s2.images.proboards.com/tongue.gif" alt=":P" border="0"/>)
What i mean, if you can't understand me, is how do you go about making sure your characters aren't just 2D? have you ever had a time when you've pulled back from a story and realised there wasn't a single destinct personality to be found? Or that you had made them all react the same way? I want to hear your character troubles, your issues, the ones that make you want to throw things through windows in frustration, but you don't because you have way more control then that and that would be very bad now wouldn't it... and i'm losing my thoughts again, what's new?
Anyway, let's have at it? Do you have a character of yours you love to hate, or is it your eternal frustration with them that makes you like them?
I want to hear about the bad ones, the ones you despise, and what did you do about them, or are they still that little nasty devil on your shoulder?
Go to town, guys, i want to hear b!tching in the extreme with this one [img]http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif" alt=";D" border="0"/>
I just wanted to digress slightly - sorry Flit!
and post a leetle comment on LorF
As it was mentioned in this thread...
After chattling a bit with Kayt tonight, I decided to look up the journal and read for myself waht it was all about.
I got VERY hooked. In fact I went back through the archive and read all of the stories from the beginning.
I'm still in mid april so I have a fair ways to go [img]http://s2.images.proboards.com/smiley.gif" alt=":)" border="0"/>
I just wanted to put around a big grug to all who are involved. All of the characters are fantastic and the scenario is compelling.
I keep reading because I want to know more. I think it ties in to alot of those thoughts and feelings that young people today have. What would I do if a war broke out tomorrow?
This week is the 60th anniversary of the end of WW2. Many members of my extended family perished in concentration camps, so the stories you have all written have a real meaning for me.
I know from the stories of my relatives that appeasement was thought to be a real option. They chose Life to, go along, to not make waves. Ironically it didn't save them. Those who stayed died, or worse - became suvivors.
If I think about what I would have done, If I would have chosen the path of resistance, would I have run? I think your project is fantastic. Keep writing. Make more characters. Tell more stories.
Keeper of the Sherbet Lemons
18 years ago
Keeper of the Sherbet Lemons
Guildmember
Why not join in? The more lorfment the merrier! We convinced Bunly finally to join, and so you should too! [img]http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif" alt=";D" border="0"/>
I'm glad you're enjoying LorF, Rigel, and I'm glad the themes and characters we've created have resonated with you.
And by all means, you are very welcome to join the project. But if you just want to read our writings, that's fine too.
And do feel free to comment on our entries, especially once you've caught up. Not all our LorFers will read your comments above (although I think I might pass them on, if you don't mind), but I'm sure they will appreciate them.
Three cheers for LorF, I say!!!
OK, I have a lot to write here. So I apologise for what's going to be an unconscionably long post. Forgive me. Or skim over it, whatever. I just find I have to answer every one of these questions [img]http://s2.images.proboards.com/smiley.gif" alt=":)" border="0"/>
Writing Methods
I used to always have four to six different novels going at once, but it petered down to one or two when I was about seventeen. So I'll use that as the standard. I usually have one major thing I'm working on, one or two ideas for major things to work on, which basically come about because of the limitations in whatever I'm working in (if I can't put any pop culture refs in whatever I'm working in, I promise myself that the next one will be something which can be full of them, for example.) And for the last year or so, I've been working on short stories, as well. I don't do the two things at once thing very well, though - if I'm caught up in a short story, then I'm not actually working on my novel, I'm just kind of pretending to.
I write from beginning to end. Sometimes I write stray scenes, and occasionally I write a draft for the climax before I get there, but generally I start at the beginning, and write with no gaps. Which means most of my stories don't have endings.
As far as planning goes - I still don't really have a set method. Bluehorn was a rush to start, with the result that the plot gave out about halfway through, so when I shelved it to work on Ceres, I decided I was going to go overboard with plot. I have a broad plot arc for the series, a vague plan for the series climax, a detailed plot outline for the first book, and quite detailed character profiles, although I don't yet have much in the way of backstory. But the thing is that in terms of actual writing for Ceres, I have almost nothing. Less than 4000 words. And I don't seem to be writing more. So I don't know how to rate that particular approach.
I have a better system for short stories. I never start a short story anymore until I've worked out a funky ending for it. It can take me weeks of thinking about it in the shower etc. But it means that my stories don't peter out into nothing anymore, which is cool. And it means that I don't betray a really cool premise by giving it a disappointing ending.
Dreams
I dream plot too, Kayt! Not of anything I'm writing, though. But almost all of my dreams are narrated. Sometimes I'm in them and narrating them at the same time. If it's a nightmare, this can work against me, since as a narrator I'm kind of sadistic. But a lot of the time I don't appear in them at all. I tried to turn a dream into an actual novel once, but it didn't get very far.
Gods
I try to steer away from gods. There was one fantasy, when I was about fourteen, where I did a lot of worldbuilding and that included gods. But once I had them, I found I had to include them in the story as actual actors, so they weren't so much a mythology as a host of minor characters.
In general I can get away with no religion at all. I like to have some system of legends which are never really ellaborated on, but not actual religion or priests (or not since I was quite young, and still writing high fantasy.) In Bluehorn I invented a system of Saints, mostly so when my characters swore, they could do so without referring to any god.
Magic
I like to steer away from magic as much as possible too (again, this is since I stopped writing high fantasy, I used to use lots of sorcerers etc.) There's always some, but I like it to be a very specific magic, which doesn't really feel like magic at all. And the magic users tend to be secondary characters. In Bluehorn, I had mages, but their power was a mind power, and it was all about illusion and glamour. My main character was mageblind, which meant that she walked through all this illusion, but she couldn't see any of it. In Ceres, I have seers, but future telling isn't really regarded as magic. I needed seers because my protagonist has a destiny - but she doesn't have any magic, or particular powers, or in fact anything to make the destiny seem even slightly probable. But I like to give my characters something which isn't actually a magical ability, but which sets them apart slightly, just so that I can play with possiblities. So in Ceres, Cere has her destiny, Ben has a psychically ingrained code of honour which he physically can't go against, Josa has the disembodied voice of an unidentified girl called Laine periodically in her head, Hope is actually the personification of Hope... etc.
Characters
My characters actually tend to be quite biddable. I quite often create a bit character who turns out to have a significant role in the plot, but that happens with other filler as well - once I took my characters to an abandoned house, just because I needed somewhere for them to hang out, and the house turned into a major metaphor for the story. Sometimes the characters do force me, though. I had my love story planned for Bluehorn from the moment I first got the premise, but it just wasn't working. There wasn't enough time for my characters to actually get to know each other, and it wasn't feeling natural for them to go from friends to lovers... and one of my villains was turning out to be far more interesting and complex than my hero, and I've finally given in and decided to go back to Bluehorn with Lukas as the love interest. (He started out as something of an Ariel character, so it was a bit of a shock to find he had to be my hero instead.)
Words
The word I overuse horribly is slightly. 'The shape shifted slightly', 'making me slightly light headed', 'slightly grim faced'... I just love my modifiers.
[img]http://s2.images.proboards.com/smiley.gif" alt=":)" border="0"/>
Blindmouse
Keeper of the Sherbet Lemons
18 years ago
Keeper of the Sherbet Lemons
Guildmember
I do the slightly thing as well! I have to hole myself back all the time from that word... [img]http://s2.images.proboards.com/tongue.gif" alt=":P" border="0"/> And i love your love interest problem there. I had that in one of my stories. I created this great bloke for her, total Brad Pitt swooning guy who was perfect, and she picked the quiet guy in the background when i wasn't looking. But it turned out to be way better for the story, because (even though i haven't started to write it yet) it gave me a purpose for the sequal for it. Where as before i didn't exactly know where the story should go... that always seems to happen with my characters, they go for someone i never saw coming, i think only once or twice i've ever been able to pick it. Most of the time i tend to be as surprised as the character when relationships like that occur. But i suppose that's what i like the most about writing, the constant surprise and intrigue i get from it. I might create these characters, but i'm almost like a reader myself because i don't always see what path they take me down.
With reference to your question a couple of posts ago, Flit, I'd like to say that I often experience 2D characters. But just as often (or so I hope), I have characters that feel real to me and whom I alternately love or hate. My first experience with really hating a character came when I was about fourteen and I was writing my first fantasy. There was a character in there called Kella, who was supposed to be my main character's best friend. But she had other ideas. She turned out to be vain, selfish and very self-interested. A total b!tch, in other words. I couldn't stand her and I felt betrayed - she wasn't meant to turn out like that.
I find the aspect that defines characters for me is their voice. This was particularly apparent when I was writing Postcards and a similar story called The Tower. Since the stories are told through the various writings of a group of characters, it was a great challenge to try and get that character across in the very words they used. In Postcards, I have good and bad characters, funny and oblivious characters, rude and tongue-in-cheek characters - and I loved them all. Even the snotty, arrogant prince and the deranged, power-mad antagonist. I knew they were real to other people too, because at least one of my early readers for that story wrote an email to me, apologising because they couldn't stand one of the characters. I was delighted! I had created a character real enough that someone just couldn't bear them.
The Tower similarly involves people I wouldn't be able to stand if I met them in real life, but I relish the challenge of making them real and hopefully causing other people to hate one or some of them. [img]http://s2.images.proboards.com/smiley.gif" alt=":)" border="0"/>
Sometimes, characters don't do what they're supposed to do, I'm afraid. I have an absolutely vital character, Cianan, in Black Fiddle, but he just seems tacked on at the moment. The biggest challenge of my second draft will be to work out a way to make him integral to the plot, to make his involvement more natural.
[begin OT rant]
Right, Hi sorry to go back to an old subject, but I have been reading through LorF., and I have become totally inspired!!
Would it be possible to join the project, even at this late stage? (Flit, if you want me to stay away, just say the word!).
And.....Kayt, can I be a medical student at Canberra Hospital? Is that possible in terms of the scenario?
[/OT rant]
A medical student sounds damn fine.
Just PM me the relevant details about alternative you, and come join us at LJ.
I'll need your name, occupation (medical student is no good, cos you won't be allowed to be one during the war), and age (you're allowed to modify your age by up to two years).
So PM me that for the website, and head on over to LJ, sign up (you'll have to apply first, but I check my email 12 times a day, so you'll be approved really quick), and post us a bio. Then get started!!!
I assume your character will be you, but not Yanna's sister. Cos Yanna's sister is overseas.
Whatever...
Anyway! YAY!!!!!!!! LORFING!!!!!!!!!!!!
I shall have to think up an alternative me too, seeing as there is currently no-one posting from good 'ol WA. I shall tell ye the story of the west...
anyways back to the topic at hand.
My characters tend to have a life of their own too on occasion. I guess the bet/worst habit (depending on your POV) is that some of my minor characters tend to take over and become more interesting than the main ones, thus necessetating (sp?) huge rewrites.
Keeper of the Sherbet Lemons
18 years ago
Keeper of the Sherbet Lemons
Guildmember
Right, are we done talking about LorF yet? [img]http://s2.images.proboards.com/tongue.gif" alt=":P" border="0"/> We always seem to talk about LorF.... yes yes, i know, i instigate a lot of it
let's get back to writing.... How do you first come up with an idea to write? What is it that inspires you?
With me it can be a lot of things, but usually it's either a song or a comment someone makes. Something gets me thinking, and before you know it, i've got a character developed, and all i need to do is figure out when you would first meet her/him. My Crimson Row book started off from watching a documentary on child stars. Now the book has got nothing to do with child stars, but the lead female very much suffers from the similar situation of your childhood being more important then your adulthood. But whereas one of my Hadan stories came about through listening to Kismet adaption by Bond, and before i knew it i was furiously sketching this woman dancing, and she then became my lead.
Which i suppose, just a side question while you think about that, are all your lead characters the same sex as you, at least the most important lead? Mine tend to be, i rarely write a male lead character, unless there's a female to share the role with him. I suppose that simply comes down to the fact that i know women better then men [img]http://s2.images.proboards.com/tongue.gif" alt=":P" border="0"/>
So anyway guys, let's get the discussion back, been missing it! Let me hear your thoughts! [img]http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif" alt=";D" border="0"/>
My ideas almost ALWAYS come from dreams. I have a strange dream that's full of interesting ideas/fantasy with a great storyline and make myself write it out as a story outline.
Weird hey...
I find it hard to write in the first person as a male character. They end up becoming too feminized [img]http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif" alt=";D" border="0"/>, also I have the same kind of drawback as flit; I don't feel that I know males well enough to write so personally.
I get inspired by all sots of things, I like to wander the art galleries and look at paintings. I also borrow heaps of art books from the library - as the things cost like $150.00+.
I like to look at classic portraits or mythical paintings. They speak to me, I know that sounds a bit strange...
I also get inspired from songs and sometimes documentaries that give insight into history and the motivations of historical figures.
My inspiration comes from everywhere and everything. It could be song lyrics, or a random person on the street or an idea in another book that I could see going a different way. I've had about half a dozen dreams in my life that came with ready-made plots and characters and which I wrote down with the intention of turning them into stories at some later stage. I haven't done it yet, but I hope I will get around to it. Some of them were quite interesting.
I have to admit, my main character is usually female. I think they've been under-represented in fantasy fiction - or when they have appeared, they've been stereotyped or given limited roles (I ranted about this in my LJ, along the lines of Fantasy Not Being History). Also, I probably feel more comfortable with a female character, because I know I'm getting them right and not resorting to male stereotypes or assumptions. Weirdly, though, I think I tend to have more secondary male characters than females. I have no idea why that happens.
Keeper of the Sherbet Lemons
18 years ago
Keeper of the Sherbet Lemons
Guildmember
Back again.
I was thinking the other night as i painted my nails blue, about a comment once made to me and how frustrated it made me feel. You see, i was trying to give the colour a name. On the bottle it is known as "hollywood" but that's just a stupid name. So i was wondering what i would call it. Electric blue came to mind, which brought back a memory of my terrible 14-year old writing. I once describe someone has having 'electric blue' hair. No real reason why, i just felt like he should have it. It was a sci/fi piece anyway, and this man just happened to be an alien.
I gave it to someone to read, and her first response was "why does he have blue hair?"
why do you think he has blue hair?? why is yours brown??
I found this increadibly frustrating. So i wondered if anyone else has ever had to explain something you thought was pretty basic about your work. Have you ever felt that being crafty and clever was totally wasted and you wanted to shake some sense into someone? Or beat them all with a 2x4? Is there a point where being too clever is a wasted effort?
Or do you just think that some people just shouldn't read, and you should source these people out and make sure they never touch your work, and if they do, that you are not bombarded with stupid questions like hair colour choices...
as for the nail colour, it's not electric blue, i haven't quite pinned down the word, but i'm leaning towards metallic twilight [img]http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif" alt=";D" border="0"/>
I can't say I've had this experience, but I did encounter something that comes close. Way back in Year Eleven, I gave a friend (and fellow writer) a copy of a story I'd been writing for a while. She was a reasonably sensible person, so I was hoping she'd give me some feedback on the story - and she did.
"You should describe your characters more," she said.
I'll admit it: I have a habit of not describing characters as much as I probably should. I think it stems from a belief that people should be able to create the characters to look however they'd like in their heads, rather than forcing them to see them a certain way (unless something about their appearance is vital to the plot, of course). Alas, my attempt to allow people to create the characters for themselves failed dismally, for this girl at least.
Keeper of the Sherbet Lemons
17 years ago
Keeper of the Sherbet Lemons
Guildmember
The combination of procrastinating and writing a new story always brings me back to thoughts on writing, so here i am, back again.
and i want to bring up places. You write what you know, so do your environments look like places you've been, things you've seen.
I ask this because i've started to write a fantasy story that has little links to the traditional Celtic backdrop. Yes, there is a Celtic area, but it's primarily Asian and South Pacific.
So how do you write? Do you use the tradition oak and pine trees? or have you turned to Australian ideals and gone for the gum tree and wattle? Do you like to use real places? Pretend this is a rewrite of history and base it somewhere in Europe, giving it a new history?
What in the environment influences you the most, or do you just not really bother about it in general?
Location, location, location is the most important aspect of any story or poem I (attempt) to write. Same goes for reading. Poor sense of location usually means I won't like the story, unless there are some really good characters and an innovative plot.
I find any fantasy work I begin always has a European woodlands backdrop. It's cliche but makes more sense to me. I should probably try to overcome this one day.
Otherwise, I certainly write about places I've been, though I tend to give them a different spin - exaggerate aspects that appealed to me the most. No doubt spending most of my teenage years in Europe explains why I've never felt comfortable with the "gum tree and wattle" theme.
I haven't stuck to any particular backdrop, now I think back on it...*strains brain* unless it's a 'real place' storyline, and then I'm starting more often than not in Australia.
I like writing about hot places, near oceans. I guess I find them easy, because they're (as you said initially, Flit) what I know. Or places with great geological anomalies, eg sites of earthquakes / volcanos / tsunamis. That's probably come from studying geology at uni, crossed with what I've seen of Nth & Sth NZ. When my characters travel, even just to a big city, I base a lot of it on what I saw when I was travelling (Britain / Ireland, cold weather). Mainly because I like cities to have been built with a purpose, not just thrown together in awkward meshes of different times (like Brisbane).
But when starting a story, I usually start somewhere indistinct, somewhere that feels like home - comfortable - and try make the characters the main focus. A cop out, but seriously, anything that gets me writing...
Now I think about it, it might be interesting to write about an icy/cold place.
Keeper of the Sherbet Lemons
17 years ago
Keeper of the Sherbet Lemons
Guildmember
Well, all my old stories used to have the traditional European outlook, but then i found i was making them warmer than what they should be, that i was weaving in an Australian drought, and didn't know it. (as in, the way the rivers flowed, the weathering of the mountains). So it's become something i'm having to focus on more so i don't catch myself out.
But i'm actually back writing here with a thought i had today. I've been reading For Whom the Bell Tolls by Hemmingway, which is atrocious. but i'll whinge about that in other places more completely. the thing that relates to writing is how he describes characters. As soon as you meet a new character you will know exactly how they look. He gives you everything, right down to that tiny little stain on the back heel of the sock of the man, even though you can't see the sock because it's currently encased in a black boot with a little scuff on the toe that shoes through as a lighter navy...
Personally i like to hold a lot back from my descriptions. i will tell you the eye colour, the hair (and length), key destinguishing features, and then sometimes the height, if it's nescessary. Everything else i prefer not to say, allowing people to work it out on their own. Okay, maybe it's laziness, and maybe i don't see completely how they are, but it's what i do without even thinking anymore.
So how do you go about describing your characters? Are you ultra detailed, or do you like to back off a bit? and what appeals to you more, and why?
I've always had trouble because I forget to describe characters at all. So, in Questers as I rewrite, I've been working on description. However, I know how boring it can be, so I've tried to make it more interesting. I tried describing Taqan from the feet upwards (there's a lot of black). I imagine I'll cut a lot of it later, but it's very good practice, and at least if you START by writing the description, you can cut it out easily enough.
Keeper of the Sherbet Lemons
17 years ago
Keeper of the Sherbet Lemons
Guildmember
Yeah, but then you have to know what they look like [img]http://s2.images.proboards.com/tongue.gif" alt=":P" border="0"/>
Actually, if you read the Tomorrow When the War Began series Marsden doesn't describe any of his characters once. I remember reading an interview with him where he said that character description interrupted with how people saw them. He does specify their ethnicity though, but after that it's up for all. Then again, if i remember correctly, he only had two different ethnicities other than anglo-saxon. That was Fi and whatsisname... :S i can't remember anymore, Lee? oh, and his Enemy was Asian too, weren't they?
Anyway, off track. Not just in your writing, but other stories that you read, do you find character description too much, or do you like being told what each person looks like?