I hope it's okay that I'm starting this thread, but I thought it would be a good idea to have a place where we could discuss some of those common writing expressions that are often used incorrectly, don't make sense, are exhaustingly common clishees, or otherwise irk us as writers ourselves, because a great way to improve our own writing is to conciously think about those common phrases that might pop up in our writing without our noticing and maybe think of more unique way of saying what we want to say.
For example, how often have we seen the phrase 'it was all but ______.' Almost everytime I do, it seems the writer is intending to say the opposite of what s/he is actually saying. Even our beloved Isobel Carmody has fallen into this trap once or twice.
On page 405 in my copy of the Keeping Place, Carmody writes that 'The cloiser here is all but empty,' considering the impression she gives is that the cloisters ARE empty, this line contradicts itself.
Does this sort of thing irk anybody else or am I just being nitpicky?
That doesn't bother me honestly, I tend to reiterate a lot of phrases and such in my writing but I think that's just sort of how I write IDK. Probably a bad habit acytually but yeah meh. I think there probably are some things out there that annoy me but I can't think of any at the moment. I think it all depends on how it's used and all that too so . . . :nod:
I think I get more annoyed when characters use well known phrases when they are in books about fantasy worlds and the like. Makes no sense that they would be using the same ones as us <_<
Unless there's a reason for it, I agree, that is annoying.
For example, I just read the bit in Obernewtyn (bk 1) where Matthew says 'curiosity killed the cat' and then launches into Larkin's beforetime knowledge. That works. It makes sense. I like it.
But when someone in the Sword of Shannara said something along those lines (I cant' remember what saying it was exactly) I was totally taken out of the story. It jumps out and screams 'yes, this is a novel written by someone living in the 21st century.'
i think that saying "it was all but empty" is trying to say that it was empty but there was something about it that made it feel alive whether it was with joy or sadness. but that just might be me. ;D
what really bothers me is "looking all the world like_______" or something similar is like are you try to say this person is really big?! i know thats not what it means but it just annoys me. anyone else feel the same?
Mystic Ward
14 years ago
Mystic Ward
Rebel
I have the same problem with the "it was all but ___" phrase. Different writers seem to use it to express entirely different things.
It's a lot like the phrase "I couldn't care less". I've lost count of the times I've read in a book or heard someone say "I could care less" when they were trying to express non-interest.
Maybe it's just extreme abbreviation :P
I never notice the 'for all the world like ____' thing, but you're right. It's not exactly a phrase that makes its meaning especially clear, is it?
As far as could/couldn't care less goes... I've noticed the same thing. It always makes me wonder what the person is trying to say. I think 'could care less' generally means they have more interest than they care to admit: like when speaking of an ex-boyfriend/girlfriend, for example and hearing they've started seeing someone else. You could care less, but you actually do want to hear about it. But I have seen both phrases used to denote no interest at all, which is just plain confusing.
Dreamweaver Ward
14 years ago
Dreamweaver Ward
Dreamscape Artist
On "it was all but ___", it's meant to be used in the sense of "practically" or "almost completely" ("it was practically empty"). This does make sense for how it's used in TKP, because the cloisters still contain a few prisoners and a few low-ranked priests or workers.
"I could care less" is common in America, and for some reason is apparently an accepted expression. Of course, as you've all noticed, it makes no sense. :P "I couldn't care less" DOES make sense, and is the preferred form in Australia, which may be partly why most of us don't like "I could care less." Sometimes people just don't realise that expressions they commonly use make no grammatical sense.
I'm a bit ambivalent about the phrase "for all the world like ___" It can be a good expression if used very rarely, as it's just a way of emphasising a comparison, but I have seen it overused by some authors.
14 years ago
Sat Aug 01 2009, 09:49pm
I don't mind the whole "it was all but _____" thing, but that's probably because I like using as many words as possible sometimes. The phrases that tend to annoy me are the ones that don't seem to make any sense. There's one in particular that always irritates me: no sooner had they [ done this ] than [ something happened ]. It never sits right for me. Never.
The number one phrase that irritates me when people are talking is "yeah, no". Seriously, it's either yes or no. Don't get my hopes up with that yeah at the start... :P
|:| *looks guilty at the "yeah, no" expression in everyday speech accusation. I also get irritated by "like" "totally" "seriously" "omg", even though I am guilty for using those too.
What I am stumped about is the general slipping of standards of human speech in society. I suppose technology is a BIG contributor, we use the written word vastly more than in the past, not to mention, if a mistake is made, we can easily press the delete button and retype or rephrase our words.
But the forethought input into spoken words and the high standards of oratory that were prevalent in previous eras have vanished. I find very few people around me that are able to speak in such a fluent, faultless manner. The words simply flow from their mouth, as if they know what they are going to say and how they will phrase it all at the same time as thinking up what they will say in the next minute. I always feel like their brains must be extremely well developed to be able to do this - but sadly, such a simple thing should not astound me. Every human surely has this ability; they are born with it as a socially adept creature. I have decided to try to bring up my own standards; and it's certainly tough.
Morever, I think that this high level of vocabulary, and language use should be perpetuated by authors of childrens books. Authors should strive to broaden their reading audience's vocabulary (even if its a few words) - after all books are a part of our education. Growing up, the books I read rarely had this special element of advancing and education; and I honestly believe that is a terribly important facet of reading. Furthermore, this should be introdued at a much earlier age - when minds are young and fresh and able to remember things easily.
I also find that generally, newspaper journalists have declined in their quality of writing too. This is even mre disappointing - they are the conveyors of news via the written word - their whole career is built up around the written word and if they cannot sustain the highes t standards their forebearers did, then journalism has utterly become a sham. For these days, anyone can write a story talking about daily events and publish it on the net.
[act]realises shse has gone completely off topic[/act]
I know what you mean, Mono. Language has been steadily eroding for a long time now. ESPECIALLY in newspapers: but that has been the case ever since daily newspapers were introduced because people, writers and editors alike, who are striving to reach a hard and fast deadline are more likely to let things slip than writers of other things.
*wonders if that made any sense as she may be suffering from heatstroke having been out in the sun all day*
14 years ago
Sun Aug 02 2009, 03:15pm
I for one am a perfect example of the erosion of the spoken word. I talk so fast I often skip words, squish them together or just sound as if I am speaking an entirely different language altogether. It’s so bad that I actually do the same thing when I am writing/typing as well. :nod: Fortunately my friends know how to speak Shonk so I at least don’t have to worry about miscommunication, though I do have to edit essays and other bits of writing and all that like a million times to ensure it makes sense :P
And to further the randomness and rather off topicness, when people are writing do they ever write something completely different to what they consciously thought they were writing?!?! This happens to me quite a lot and it weird’s me out a bit because I can write/type half a sentence before I realise and although it still makes sense and all that it is completely different and irrelevant to what i thought I was writing 8-|
I've never written whole sentences without noticing something like that, but sometimes I skip half a sentence thinking that I've already written/typed it, and then I'll be reading it later and go 'wha....?'
I just think that we should be training ourselves to think a little more about what we're writing instead of stringing together common phrases, similies, and hyperbolees (sp?) that we don't necesarily even understand.
Another one that I'd like to draw attention to is: s/he turned on her/his heal.
Has anyone tried this? Maybe it's just me and my lack of coordination, but this is HARD, and it is a far more contrite and exact movement (the sort of thing people always seem to be getting at when they use this phrase) to turn on the ball of your foot. This is a personal thing and I'd love to know what everyone thinks of this one. Go stand in the middle of the room and try performing both versions. Do you see what I'm trying to say or am I just an un-co-ordinated nit-picker?
Ashlings' guildleader
14 years ago
Ashlings' guildleader
Dreamscape Artist
I know! I know! I read that in Ashling and thought to myself "WTF!?"
Now, WTF might be the sort of irksome 'term' that this thread dislikes, but that just goes to show that my shock was so great that I was rendered incoherent! I've tried this many, many times and it just feels really weird, why would anyone want to do it? (Curiosity as a result of it's in novels aside)
I actually turn on my heal all the time, well more a spin than a turn actually but I think it's just a little trait that I have 'cause I have never noticed anyone else do it before :P It's just an easy way to spin right around which I do a lot since I forget stuff and I always end up going back in the way I've just come :D
Oh, well knowing SOME people do it makes it better. Thank you Sionainn.
*sounds stupid for asking* but i keep seeing all your banners. whats botY? anyone?
the most irksome phrase that i hate is "hotting up" it is so annoying, whatever happened to heating.
It's not that hard 8-| *is starting to feel like some sort of freak of nature* I'm normal I tell you!!
I too have never heard 'hotting' up but if I did I think I would probably laugh cause that is just kinda . . . well no not kinda, IT IS stupid!
Cascading < that word in reference to hair irks me a bit because . . . I think it's stupid as well, and any mention of billowing cloaks because that is way overused and mentioned too often. Cloaks are generally made of heavier material to my knowledge so I don't image they would actually do much billowing.
Mystic Ward
14 years ago
Mystic Ward
Twentyfamilies Gypsy
I love billowing cloaks, though it does tend to be oversued and its not something I use myself. I just mostly get irked when people use the wrong there/their, weather/whether, your/you're and so on, though I'm the first to admit that I muck them up as well.
Dreamweavers' Guilden
14 years ago
Dreamweavers' Guilden
Rebel
ok this is really stupid but I hate stories that start with 'once upon a time' Not kids stories there fine, but ones that turn out to be adult novels or even some history ones I have read it really irks me :P and that 'turning on your heal' I actually find it easy to do but it is sort of pointless. if people are angry, and they turn away, they usually stomp their foot and turn (at least I do :P) or they just spin on their foot :P
Ashlings' guildleader
14 years ago
Thu Aug 06 2009, 08:53am
Ashlings' guildleader
Dreamscape Artist
This isn't so much a phrase a single word, a single word which is always picked on by persons with any interest in the English language, but which irks me none the less.
Said.
Throughout my schooling I was taught to avoid that word like the plague, was informed that there is almost always a better word. I now have an recoil reflex against it in my writing and tend to feel guilty if I use it even once in an entire piece.
This is undoubtedly an over reaction on my part, but I tend to be far more lenient when reading others' writing. However what really, really annoys me is published, popular novels that are filled with the word. It's even worse with the books I love ([act]cough[/act] IC's books [act]cough[/act]).
I tend not to notice on the first read, but by the second or third it really starts to bug me. I can't stand it. I think I've noticed a couple of times in TSK where it's used three times on the one page. I sometimes end up replacing it my mind with a more appropriate word ... which annoys me further since it shows that there was a perfectly good word available in the first place and no reason for 'said' to be there at all.
Does anyone else get OCD over this word?
Edit; See! I even avoid typing it when it's the subject of my rant! X:-/
Dreamweaver Ward
14 years ago
Thu Aug 06 2009, 09:10am
Dreamweaver Ward
Dreamscape Artist
I'm actually the opposite with said - I find it's better than overusing descriptive ways of writing the same thing. I hate it when you get books that say "shouted violently", "whispered softly", or even just "muttered", "murmured", "stated", "replied" etc etc. It's just ways of avoiding saying "said" and it can look silly if the whole book's written like that. I did a fiction writing class, and I liked their point that telling people to avoid "said" usually means that the book or story becomes unecessarily wordy - we know that they're talking, so why not just say it? That said :P I tend to avoid using any words for dialogue where possible - the quotation marks make it obvious it's dialogue, so if it's only two people, it's obvious who's talking, so I leave it to the readers to figure it out for themselves... (both who's speaking and the way it's said.)
I guess it's just different ways of learning influencing how we see things. :) I certainly understand the other side of the argument as well, as I was taught that in high school...
And on the turning on my heel thing - it's probably just because I'm unco and I'm not in the habit of doing it, so therefore it feels weird to me. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people do it without thinking anything of it though...
Mystic Ward
14 years ago
Mystic Ward
Twentyfamilies Gypsy
Back in the dark ages when I was at school we were taught that 'said' it the correct word to use on most occassions and even during my Lit course the tutors have 'said' that 'said' is the best word to use. That being 'said' I tend to do the same as Zier and not use anything if I'm writing dialogue between two people, just format the text correctly and let them work it out for themselves.
Being that IC is closer to my age than most around here she was probably taught that 'said' is the correct word choice as well. It also works for me as part of the KISS program that I try to adhere to.
14 years ago
Thu Aug 06 2009, 11:04am
The said thing has bothered me on both sides of that scale. I think there is a happy medium between the two thought trains (not at all related to the Fian Train, btw) that should be walked.
I once read a book where the auther only ever used said. He used 'said quietly' instead of whispered, which would be preferable because whispered is just one word, and 'said loudly' for yelled/screamed, whatever. But most irritating of all, he used said instead of asked.
That's one thing that really buggs me, because said and asked are two different things. You read it differently based on the word used. 'How do you mean?' he said. *cringes* does that read funny to anyone else? It was a good thing that book's story was really good, or I don't think I'd ever have got through it.
As the general rule for 'said' I was taught to use the most exact word. If they're talking quietly, use whisper. It adds character to the scene and reminds you that the people talking don't want to be overheard. If they're angry, pull out whatever words for 'scream' you can think of, because words do tend to spill out of us when we're angry, and as a reader I want the images evoked. But for regular conversations, said is fine. Obviously, you don't want to have he said, she said, I said, all the way down the page, but....
Anyway. That's just my say on said :)
Ashlings' guildleader
14 years ago
Ashlings' guildleader
Dreamscape Artist
Yeah, that makes sense. I guess I'm also biased from the point of view that I also get irritated when I hear/read/write the same word too often. Most common words are exempt from this, but I guess that 'said' just isn't for me.
::) [act]sighs[/act] Yes, strange things bug me when it comes to writing.