Min, I have some thoughts on your first point.
Could Alpha's safe-haven be a non-physical place? We've seen, time and time again, that people's entire personalities and identities can be removed and replicated (eg Topher's-mind-in-Antony's-body, that dead friend of Adelle's who Echo is imprinted with early in season 2, Caroline, Madeleine etc). It makes a lot of sense to me that Alpha's found some way of storing people's personalities in order to be able to imprint them on other bodies if necessary. Making multiple copies of one person's mind is, after all, the safest way to ensure that that person is never killed.
Just putting it out there.
Ashling Guildmistress
14 years ago
Ashling Guildmistress
Mage
Dolorosa - in regards to your above post
(lol, don't you love thinking of things to say before the spoiler tags for the sidebar ;))
I like your thinking -
However :P I wonder if people really want to be 'never killed' as opposed to 'not being separated from the body you were born into this world with'.
Yes, there are people who would do anything for seeming immortality, but I'm thinking the 'general' people would like nothing more than to just own what for a while they thought they were entitled to own: their body.
It brings up an interesting thought really: what is safehaven? I'm pretty sure there is a quote somewhere, but I the impression I got was that you were free to be yourself.
You know in a way :P kind of glad Epitaph 2 isn't out for 2 weeks - it means that I actually sit down and theorise which is fun :D
*super late arrival to thread*
I've just watched Epitaph 2: The Return :( I'll leave a bit of time to see what other people have to say about it before I offer my opinion. I only started watching Dollhouse recently - cramming two seasons as a reward for finishing uni work - and want to read back through this thread more thoroughly, and have some time to let everything sink in.
Not quite super spoilers, but I thought I'd cover just in case:
All I will currently do is curse Fox for making it such a rushed finale. It could have at least had an extended air time - just fifteen minutes extra might have given it a slightly better pace. But as mentioned previously on this thread, this was all meant to be strung out over seasons, not minutes. I think they did a good job of tying up most loose ends, but I still have a lot of questions about Alpha, and the foresight of Rossum.
I'm definately going to have to make DVD purchases for the extras in case they fill any bits in! Or perhaps Whedon get Darkhorse Comics involved like he did after Firefly and put some padding in graphic novels or comics? One can only hope...
14 years ago
Mon Feb 01 2010, 07:02am
Oh yes, the questions, the questions! :"( I'll definitely be buying the DVD too...
I was absolutely...devastated by Epitaph Two. It ended well (saving the world), but at the same time, really unfairly/badly for Echo. And what happens to Caroline? She's another mind being stored in Echo, and not gotten her body back at all?
I agree with the rushed feeling. There was one point however - the epic gun battle to get everyone back into the Dollhouse - that they extended for too long! It was like...couldn't you be giving us more story time than just shooting at one another?
And then...BAM, Paul's dead. Wash-style. GAH! DamnitJoss! And even Topher's end, though we knew it was coming, was a shock.
Why was Alpha stable/friends with everyone? I loved it (it was more like Wash!) but I would have equally loved to know how that happened. Sigh. Time they didn't have.
It's ridiculous that this show didn't get a few more seasons. Think of all we could have gotten from 3 more years (incl. 3 more Epitaphs) - I think I read somewhere that it was initially planned to be 5 seasons? That he had enough story to last that long?
[act]sulks[/act] I'm going to go sit in the corner with my violin and...math :"(
14 years ago
Mon Feb 01 2010, 06:00pm
This is probably going to sound...strange and somewhat insensitive, but I actually found it a lot less devastating than I expected. :-/
I think that was just a matter of personal buildup, though - after Epitaph One and the direction the main storyline went in, I got myself all worked up about the likelihood a really depressing, apocalyptic ending, in which everybody died, mankind wasn't saved, and the world became a blackened ruin with no hope.
In hindsight, I see I was probably letting my imagination get away from me there. :P Nonetheless, an ending in which the problem was solved, the world had a chance to be rebuilt, and only two of the various main characters died felt comparatively optimistic to me - bittersweet more than tragic. Also, having become something of a pessimist where Joss is concerned, I'd sort of assumed Paul and possibly Topher were going to die. What surprised me more was that Echo, Adele, Siera, and Victor lived. ~:|
[strike]Victor[/strike] Anthony Junior ftw! :P
Anyway, I thought it was a fitting ending to the series, although I agree that both this episode and Dollhouse as a whole needed more time in order to really do their ideas justice. I would have liked to see how this show's story played out over a well-paced number of seasons, rather than an ever-uncertain, on/off rush of two.
What did everyone think of Echo taking on Paul's personality? I found it an interesting way to round off the theme of identity that's been explored throughout the show. To me (this is a generalisation, I know, and feel free to disagree), Dollhouse started off being about how to recover the "true" Caroline and dispel the "non-entity" Echo, but ended up being about the development of Echo as her own person (...people :P), one who absorbed Caroline as simply one among many different selves. It's not an end result I would have predicted at the start, and I wonder to what extent it was planned from the beginning. Certainly there were hints of Echo becoming more than an unthinking Doll, but the move away from recovering Caroline and her individual self still struck me as interesting. And then making Paul another of Echo's personalities, so that she could always be with him...I can't decide whether that, to me, undermines the questions of self the show was asking, or reinforces them. But anyway.
14 years ago
Tue Feb 02 2010, 08:47pm
Finally watched Epitaph 2 :'( I was in tears!!
Poor Topher! And it was even more a shock because it was so SUDDEN, he was like "oh- BOOM" :( Poor Topher! I guess in a way he needed to die so he wasn't once again forced to build another one or something. Ah poor guy!
And I agree with what's been said: it was too rushed. Too much happened, too many questions, too many open ends still there. And of course I will blame DAMNED FOX! GR! ":( Makes me so angry!!
In what we were given it was brilliant, imagine if we had been given it PROPERLY, as Joss imagined it all.
I almost thought that since Alpha disappeared, perhaps he would allow his Paul identity to come out. And I would have been really bummed and really dissatisfied with that. In a way I was still a bit unsure about what to feel about Paul's identity being 'uploaded' into Echo. I don't know how I feel about it all about the theme of identity either - whether it goes against everything the show has been all about... I feel somewhat as though it was put in so perhaps viewers wouldn't feel it was TOO depressing ending, so that Echo sort of ends up with Paul. In a way?
I don't know.
Excellent show. How many shows are there out there these days that give you so much to ponder? Such an intricately crafted and complicated idea! Stupid FOX!
EDIT: where did everyone buy season 1 of Dollhouse? Definitely will get season 2 on DVD! And now I discover there were graphic novels on Firefly! I need to get to Minotaur!
Ashling Guildmistress
14 years ago
Ashling Guildmistress
Mage
I can't comment yet because I'm still in shock/or denial or some state of mind that is preventing me from forming a response
Filler...
I was surprised at how undevastated I was, actually. Paul was a shock, I will definately admit that one. But Topher...I don't know. I absolutely lurve him, and have a big girl!crush on him, but I think it felt as though his character had already left once he decsended into 'madness'. I very much liked seeing his and DeWitt's relationship towards the end.
I suppose I just don't feel as though I really got all of the explanation I wanted regarding, well, everything I suppose! Alpha is one of the biggies, but also things like a more detailed explanation of Claire's role, and whether Boyd was always loopy, or whether that was a gradual thing.
I think I also thought it seemed a bit too easy to reset the world. Was that just me wishing for complication?
At least it leaves some gaps for some good fanfic...it's just a case of finding the stuff that is actually good!
Its so annoying that I can't read these spoilers yet. I've just seen the episode where Echo rescues that Mexican woman from prison, and then returns to the Dollhouse. Any idea of how many episodes I have left?
Mystic Ward
14 years ago
Mystic Ward
Twentyfamilies Gypsy
I've yet to watch any eps other than the first of series 2 and I really should sit down and do it, but I'm loving the spoilers. :P
DO, I think you're about five or six episodes from the end - not too long to go!
Lucy -
Yes, I was surprised at how easily they reset the world, too. That's one of the reasons I found the ending happier than expected, I think - I didn't really see a way for the remaining characters to fix the problem or save society, so thought it was all going to end pretty hopelessly. The fact that Topher was actually able to find a solution, build the ecessary equipment, and then set it off from the top of the building was a bit too rushed and simple, I think, but I guess that was another timeframe issue. Still, lack of complication aside, I liked that it ended on a hopeful note.
14 years ago
Wed Feb 10 2010, 12:12am
Gah. Not fair. Nipped in the bud. The metaphorical Jossgarden does not like this over-pruning of promising young er flowers.
Ballard. Topher. Gah! Talk about Joss' standard culling of characters.
Watching the last episode just felt unsatisfying. Great but unsatisfying. They did a good job of it but no matter how good a job they did, it was always going to feel like it only came to an end because it had to come to an end. Which was essentially the case. So, fox, much shame on you.
Thanks Lucy. I'll be back in this thread in five or six weeks to read the spoilers
14 years ago
Wed Mar 03 2010, 07:16am
[act]sigh[/act] I'm sad that this thread has made it onto the second page :( so am bringing it forward :P
I've been re-watching the whole series with Amie, and there are so many interesting little things that I'm picking up now I know to look for them :D
If Boyd doesn't want something to happen, for instance - he looks like he has no control over the situation, but then all the men with guns barrel in to control it. Like, he makes a call and makes it stop.
There was an interesting moment in the last one we watched - Ep8? The one with the Needs exercise. There's flashbacks at the start of it, when Caroline is talking to Adele about going into the house. Caroline mentions something about 'the big black man'. Obviously - now we know - it's Boyd :D
Ah awesome! :) When some of my uni assignments are done, I might treat myself to a block rewatch session, and enjoy bringing it all together and noticing stuff, and kicking myself for things being obvious. (Even though they totally weren't :P)
any word yet on when season 2's out on dvd?
No idea. Has season 1 even been released in Aus yet?
I still haven't seen the second half of season 2. But, happily, exams are over soon and then I can watch as much TV as I like without feeling guilty :D
Mystic Ward
13 years ago
Mystic Ward
Twentyfamilies Gypsy
Finally got around to watching series 2, up to ep 10.
That was the goryest ep and I hope they don't get goryer for the last three. But OMG! I can't believe all the weird and wonderful stuff that is going on.
I thought it sounded really familiar... it was so sad! and yes it did make me miss the series even more!
Is the first season out in Australia yet? I want it!!
11 years ago
Mon Dec 24 2012, 11:34am
The first season is out in Australia - my partner and I have just started watching it. We had finished with Firefly, and though we'd move on to more Joss Wheddon. I have just finished watching the first season (which is out in Australia) and I liked it. Being huge Firefly fans, my partner and I thought we'd give it a try, and although I think it's kind of slow at first, it's definitely interesting and thought-provoking.
My partner and I were really confused by Epitaph One, however, and I had to google it to find out what the hell was going on. It just seemed so random after the Alpha episode. I found it was hard to understand, because suddenly the show became post-apocalyptic, there were flashbacks, and it seemed so different from the other episodes. I found the past and future flashes were so confusing. Maybe it was just me, but I have to watch the episode again to properly understand it.