13 years ago
Wed Jun 09 2010, 05:23pm
Warning: LOTS OF SPOILERS.
While this thread could have probably gone in the All other subboard...it makes a little sense to put it here, since it concerns the Ober world, right?
Basically I wanted a place to squee over the revelations the Dark Road gave us, and discuss any additional questions it's given us to mull over.
Firstly-
OMG, Maruman!! This was IMO the biggest spoiler to deal with. Maruman is a dreamcat created by Cassy. How/why? Does that mean that Cassy is still technically alive, or is it relative - is she running the Dreamtrails as Maruman in her own time? And then, how is it that Elspeth's Maruman takes another form (tyger) when travelling with Elf?
Anyway, YAY! And to me this somewhat lessens the blow that Maruman might 'die' in The Sending. Actually...he'll probably just fade away, once the task's complete, finally allowing all of Cassy's soul to rest in peace...
Second revelation that rocked my socks- was confirmation that Hannah and Cassy survived the great white in cryogenic pods. Could it be possible that Jacob survived in the beforetime city in the same way? He might be very old, but alive enough to wake when the time comes and do whatever's required?
Also was anyone else as happy as I was to hear that Hannah and Jacob were in love? It was always hinted at, we knew Jacob loved her, but were never sure if Hannah's affections. Was nice surprise to see it was mutual :)
Third thing confirmed-
that Elspeth will physically walk a Dark Road (one assumes bitumen?) to a Beforetime city. I wonder why?! It sounds like there's still power in that city (seeing the lights just before sunrise). But if the Entina is in Redland, what could possibly be in the City for Elf to find/do?
Anyway, what's everyone's thoughts?
Mystic Ward
13 years ago
Mystic Ward
Twentyfamilies Gypsy
PML. you really don't expect me not to read the spoilers do you? I am looking forward to the story even more now!!!
13 years ago
Thu Jun 10 2010, 07:31am
[act]facepalm[/act] but Deb - what about the amazement of reading the surprises in context? Argh :P
Zier yeap - mindstream can be used for all sorts of things right? Doesn't Elspeth 'fill' herself with it when she creates her spirit form on the dreamtrails? Perhaps that's how Maruman was formed...
The reason I wondered if the secret was Maruman, was that I can just see so much else happening in the Sending, and Elspeth doesn't really need to know Maruman's origins. He's always been a mystery, and there's no reason why he can't stay one for her - after the quest is complete, he just fades away for example. But things like Hannah and Jacob's bones and the moon, and cryogenic freezing - all of them are much closer to Elspeth's quest, the things she needs to discover, so we're likely to hear/read about.
Yay, another Jacob fan! [act]high fives[/act]
I suppose if we don't get to meet him in flashbacks, we'll always have the Beforetime Trilogy (this story I always thought as a sort of...test for that. Perhaps it's just me!)!
Speaking of Luthen and his grave...I wonder where the statue of him is, that Cassy first gifted to the Council? Will it pop up (or has it already, and we've been blind to notice it?)..?
I'm just starting to wonder...all of the keys are so scientific in nature, you have the (probability) of Jacob/Hannah's DNA being required, and the USB stick of doom, plus the sword with the circuit board in it. Hannah could have likely done the biological things, but was Cassy a tech-head? And what exactly is her talent, it's not really made clear in any of the books? I always assumed with a name like "Cassandra" that she was the Futureteller, but no.
If Hannah is the futureteller (which we now know she is!), what is Cassy? A beastspeaker? More? Who set up the crystal cavern to work with the laptop, and built the sword stone's board, and encoded the USB stick of doom to the Sentinel? Cassy must have. Perhaps she's a teknoguilder only instead of having to use the talent to figure out what an object is, she already knows what it does but uses her talent to manipulate it to do what she wants it to do - such as drawing power from a different source.
SO interesting, and yet again I have to dash :P
Mystic Ward
13 years ago
Thu Jun 10 2010, 05:11pm
Mystic Ward
Twentyfamilies Gypsy
OMFL! I cried and cried!
Poor Hannah and Hannah. The child Hannah growing up without her mum and the adult Hannah having to leave her child,
I had always thought Hannah senior was the queen of the Red Land but it's Aquilla. And Luthen, Woot! We have a name for Cassie's husband. His body was never found, :P, or his sword! I'm guessing the stone sword is it, though it's suposed to be lost in the ocean. And his tomb is empty,, unless there is a key still there, so maybe that has more to do with Dragon and the beasts that the Seeker's quest. Nope has to be a key!
Hannah senior: farseeker, futerteller, beastspeaker
Cassie: Farseeker, beastspeaker, coercer.
Maruman??? is this the secret the Sneding will not reveal???
blockquote]Zier wrote... Maruman appearing to the girl as Maruman instead of Merimyn has to be important, right?) [/blockquote] I think this means Merimyn is just a real kitten.
Am I wrong or does it seem in TKP (I think) that Hannah senior had stayed in the LotRQ??
Re the dark road. I had a thought that it could be something like the tunnel under the English Channel.
The signs: Hannah's bones must be important as that is the first clue. "Find something left with a woman who had dreamed of me." pg 417 penguin 2007.
Elf alreadyhas clue 2, the words from Stone Hill.
third clue is gypsy promises (Yay for more Swallow)
fourth clue, "find something that sealled a pact..." Has to be the monument in Noviny's garden, the statue of Luthen.
fifth clue you'd think is Luthen's tomb, but what if the slavers called into the LotRQ and Cassie got the sword out of it and took it to Sador??
Yes I know I'm rambling but...SQUEEEEEE!!!!
So, I rushed out today and bought the book, and OMG the story was amazing! So good to have some new Ober material to ponder over!
I wasn't expecting Hannah to be the daughter Hannah either. I assumed it would be the older Hannah, but I sort of like it better because we get to discover things with her. And OMG, I want a Mellow! He was so sweet!
Min, I love your theory about Maruman! I agree that, if he was created as a piece of someone's soul, then its most likely Hannah's, what with his facination with the moon, and how he sticks so close to Elf. Hannah (senior) devoted her life to laying things out for the Seeker, so it only makes sense that she'd want to ensure that everything goes according to plan.
Ok, my memory sucks, but what exactly did the Teknoguilders find in the grave at Obernewtyn? Cos the letter said that the grave at Obernewtyn was none of Hannah's concern, but that it does serve a purpose. Was it a contamination suit?? Which would indicate that Hannah returned from the Dark Road, and from the city at the end of it after leaving her mother's bones with Jacob's.
Which leads me to wonder what was Jacob doing in that city? And which city is it? I agree that their DNA will be needed by Elf to complete her quest. I'm thinking something like a security protocol that needs DNA authorisation from both Hannah and Jacob. I'm also thinking that perhaps that city is where it's all going to go down in The Sending, after Elf gets back from the Red Land.
And Cassy ... so, she's not the futureteller. She's definatelty a beastspeaker, and a tech head, so my guess is that Hannah could see what needed to be done, and Cassy had the know how to pull it off. But this completely changes my view of her! I dunno, I always saw Cassy as more important than Hannah, but I don't think that's right anymore. I think Cassy has been putting a lot of the clues in place, but it's all been orchestrated by Hannah.
And I'm kind of out of ideas now. But wow, what an awesome story!
Mystic Ward
13 years ago
Mystic Ward
Twentyfamilies Gypsy
Side bar doodle la la la la la la la
The efari: some kind of mutant people who will try to enslve Elf when she reaches the city at the end of the long road?? An animal of some kind?? I want to know!
Cassie's ability with the laptop: more than just technoguilding?? IC has mentioned a new talent. What if thats it?
Brain...wont...stop...
Oh man, I just read the bits around the spoilers and it sounds awesome! I'm fighting a major urge to click and drag!! No! Mustn't do it! Only 11 and a half hours until the bookshop opens!
Definitely don't spoil it! It's a really great read!
I was so mind blown when I realised there was two Hannahs! And again when I realised that the driving force behind the setting up for the Seeker was Hannah not Cassy. Cassy being used as a figurehead or to do certain things because of her techno skills/previous connections make sense but it also makes me think that Hannah might have been trying to stay as invisible as possible too.
About the Seraphim line...This isn't really a major thing but it caught my attention and confused me. Hannah senior says that her daughter will have two daughters who will have their own two daughters, until a son will be born in the seekers time. Which I instantly took to mean Rushton, and which would suggest that his mother is of Hannah's line of descent, NOT Lucas or Michael. Unless Lucas counts as being roughly Elspeth's time, but then why would Rushtons Grandmother also stare at the moon, if he got his heritage from his father's side. =/
I love the idea of Maruman being a piece of Cassy's soul! Modelled off a memory of Merimyn possbly... maybe this has something to do with that Spirit Link Isobelle tweeted about?
Yeah, I assumed the boy would be Rushton too, simply because unlike Michael, he has a connection with Elf. My memory sucks, but who was Lucas?
Mystic Ward
13 years ago
Mystic Ward
Twentyfamilies Gypsy
Isn't it a lovely day?
Lucas is Rushton's Grandfather, the one who originally re-built Obernewtyn. And yeah, I never thought of it that way.
Ah, ok. I'd completely forgotten about him!
Ok, that was a pretty interesting read. Some of the other stories weren't bad either. On to theories, though!
So. Hannah Seraphim definitely not the first Red Queen then, although it didn't seem very likely after TSK anyway. So, if Hannah Snr has brown hair and brown eyes, and Hannah Jnr has the Rushton-esque black hair and green eyes, I'm thinking these traits came from Jacob, yes?
Does anyone else think that Elspeth might be a descendent of Hannah's/Cassy's as well? She too has the black hair and green eyes. And there was that weird snippet of a dream somewhere along the line where Garth tells Elspeth she really is a gypsy... To be honest, I really hope she isn't. I prefer my heroes to rise up from the ranks of the common people, not turn out to be some long-lost descendant of fancy people from the past. But then, I suppose there can't have been too many survivors after the Great White, so probably everyone is at least a bit related.
I'm very curious to find out more about this Aquilla person. I assumed that the Red Queens had some kind of connection to Cassy in the Beforetime, but it seems from this story that Hannah and Cassy and the trashers held captive by Govamen survived the Great White in cryogenic stasis, while Aquilla's people descended from survivors of the Age of Choas.
I will be bitterly diappointed if Maruman is a construct of either Hannah or Cassy's. Maruman is a real cat, not a human soul in a cat body. If he's not a cat, why is he so smug? Why such destain for humans? So he and Hannah Snr both look at the moon a lot. Probably everyone who knows what's up there does. I'm prepared to buy into the theory that Maruman is from the Beforetime, or has travelled there on the dreamtrails and met Cassy and Hannah. Maybe he's one of the animals tortured in Govamen experiments, like the gaunette birds. But he's definitely a real cat. I'm a cat person, so I would know.
Such a sad, sad story.
I wonder what it is about Elspeth that makes her so unique? Hannah and Cassy both seem pretty switched on and like they've got pretty strong Talents. Why couldn't they shut down the leftover weaponmachines themselves, I wonder? Sure, Elspeth has that killing power. Maybe her Talent is stronger than theirs were, although Hannah Snr seems pretty formidable. But maybe it's more to do with the time and place Elspeth lives in than her particular Talents and personal traits. Maybe its not only necessary for the Seeker to have Elspeth's talents, but also for Misfits to be acknowledged and for beasts to be free. I dunno. Otherwise, surely it would be simpler for Hannah and Cassy to wake up after their cryogenic sleep and go and shut down the machines themselves, rather than run around leaving clues and signs and digging up old usb keys in the hope that thousands of years later, they'll finally be put to use. The more I think about it actually, the less it makes sense. If they knew where the machines were and how to shut them down, why not just do it?
Gee, that turned into a bit of a rant.
My theory as to why Hannah and Cassie didn't shut them down themselves is that they were dormant until Elf's time. As in, they were never going to be a threat again, but what with all of the unrest that has hit the Land in Elf's time, and the digging/mining project that is going on in the Red Land, there's every chance that the weaponmachines will be activated in Elf's time, heanse why it has to be her that stops them. Maybe Hannah and Cassie couldn't do anything in there time, because disturbing them then might have set them off? I'm just guessing here, I don't have anything to back this up with, but this train of thought is making me think that perhaps Elf has to be the one to stop the weaponmachines because they do get activated whilst she's around, where as they were completely dormant and safe when Hannah and Cassie were around.
Wanderer Ward
13 years ago
Wanderer Ward
Mage
OML! I fanally managed to get to the bookstore today, and of course I read this straight away, despite more pressing needs!
I cried.
I'm an absolute sucker for lost love/grieving lovers, and with Hannah Sr/Jacob and Cassy/Luthen, it was all just too much!
I loved every bit of it. It's been a while since I've re-read the books, but I think I got it all anyway.
I love how we all of a sudden have another Hannah!
I agree, Cassy must have some sort of tech-talent. And it is kind of odd/different to know/see her as not the Futureteller.
I would like to think that Maruman was a real cat, somehow preserved on the dreamtrails, and that Hannah Sr./Cassy could call him out/across to help in the quest...perhaps they used him to "entertain" Hannah Jr. so as to get her used to him, so she would know/remember him when she saw him again later?
I can't remember what they found in Jacob's [not]grave, was it something that led them to the city under Tor?
I think, too, that the bones are in some way another key. Either for DNA (which seems likely) or perhaps physically a key (ie. to be actually insetred into some sort of lock/thing)?
I would love if Jacob had survived to be with Hannah Sr. again, but I think my romantic side would be equally appeased to find out that Jacob carried out some vital task for Hannah Sr. in the city, and then left her some sort of note, to be found when she finally got there (as he knew she would)...
Anyway, I'm sure there's lots more to speculate about, but my head's too full...I'll read it again in a few days, and see what else I can come up with...
Wow! I absolutely loved reading it, even though I unfortunately devoured that in too short a time. Still, it managed to re-ignite my passion for the series, because there was just so much information packed in there to get my mind whirring.
So many tantalising glimpses into the past, and what might be in store for Elspeth in the future … To have an entire piece devoted to Cassandra and Hannah’s time was amazing.
Firstly, I was instantly befuddled by the presence of Hannah Seraphim. It just didn’t fit to have Hannah Seraphim young enough to have Cassy’s son fall in love with her. After all, Hannah was middle aged when Cassy first met her! But then, as I read on, I thought it was so ingenious to give Hannah Seraphim’s daughter the exact same name. It’s already confusing enough trying to figure out Rushton’s ancestry tree, so why not add identical names to make it that much more interesting ;)
And talking about Rushton’s ancestors, it was another interesting point to find out that Hannah and Jacob did love each other, and that their daughter was born hundreds of years after the Great White, and her father’s lifetime. Very sad though, knowing that it wasn’t just distance that kept that family separated, but because of the ‘coldsleep,’ time also. I really felt for both Hannah’s, especially Hannah Senior, who really sacrificed her life for the greater good. It must have been a sad and lonely existence being ruled by such horrible and tragic visions, especially knowing they would always take priority over the events in her own life.
Cassandra, however, was portrayed in a much different light. Here she’s started to take control of her destiny, and it’s the first time we actually see her in such an important role. She’s no longer that teenager on the cusp of realising her true potential. Here, she is strong, and accepting of whatever fate Hannah has foretold for her.
That’s something else that surprised me though. Cassandra wasn’t the futureteller she was made out to be – she depended upon only Hannah (Senior)’s futuretellings. Which makes me wonder, if Hannah couldn’t tell her daughter everything that was to come, so as to spare her the agony of knowing her entire future is mapped out before her, then perhaps Hannah did the same with Cassandra, and left a similar letter with her that reveals over a period of time what she must do. It would be rather hard to go through life, especially the suffrages Cassandra endured, if she had known absolutely everything that would happen. Of course, on the other hand hanging onto such a letter is not really feasible, considering the Gadfian pirates who took her from the Land would have taken anything of value from her possessions.
About Maruman … I really don’t feel that Maruman was a facet of Cassandra’s dreamweaving abilities, for it is now known that Hannah was the future teller, and the one more likely to travel the dream trails for visions of the future. Plus, it was only Hannah Junior’s opinion that Cassandra had weaved him, something which Cassandra always denied.
Also, in Elspeth’s vision of a younger Maruman in TSK, the woman calling out for ‘Merimym’ bears a striking resemblance to the sculpture of who we now know is Hannah (junior). This doesn’t necessarily mean Hannah junior is calling out for Merimym, but could actually be her mother, back before the Great White, in the time of her own youth.
What I believe is that Maruman was actually known to Hannah (senior) because he lived in her time, and that like her and Cassandra, was placed in the ‘coldsleep’, until around the time Elspeth was born. The reason why his mind is so fragile could be the direct result of being in that coldsleep for such a longer period of time than Cassandra and Hannah, and also because of his frequent disappearances where he goes ‘seliga’.
And ‘seliga,’ as Elspeth takes to mean ‘backwards’, could actually indicate the periods of time where Maruman actually goes back in time on the Dreamtrails. After all, he visits Hannah Junior when he is older and missing one eye, and he doesn’t actually lose an eye until Elspeth's time. I’m probably really off-centre but I always had the feeling that on the dreamtrails, one cannot visit moments in the past unless they or someone they know who is travelling with them was initially alive or present for those times. I mean, Elspeth was able to see the doors of Obernewtyn on the dreamtrails, but only because she had seen them before. So perhaps Maruman is that missing link between Cassandra and Elspeth’s times, with the unique ability to go back to the weakest moments in time, and help where the Seeker’s quest could possibly fail.
Argh, I really hope I’m making sense to someone here, because I think I just confused myself, hehe. I have many, many other thoughts about the other things that have already been mentioned, but I think I’ve rambled on enough for the time being.
Interesting information on timelines and regarding Guanette
(first time using spoiler tags, so sorry if I get it wrong)
So we now know that it's been hundreds of years between the Great White and the activities of Kasanda and the beginning of the Twentyfamilies in the Land, and that the place names haven't changed much since then, and now we are left to wonder how long it has been, how many years, or generations have been since the first D'rekta and Elspeth's time. I'm inclined to believe there have been at least twenty generations or so, just out of how I perceive it. And it goes as far as, um, I don't know how to say this, so here's a quote - " 'You will have two daughters, Hannah and they will have two daughters apiece, and their daughters will have daughters and so on until a son is born in the time when the Seeker will come. When that son is grown, he will make Obernewtyn his own.' " So we know there is a least Hannah Sr, Hannah Jr, Hannah Sr's grandchildren (Nell and Ivory), great-grandchildren (including Daisy), great-great grandchildren, then the so on then Lucas/Rushton. And probably quite a few in the middle.
I've been rereading Obernewtyn, though, and I know this is probably just something from early on that's changed, or that is an in-world confusion of history, but I though it would be interesting to note this quote pg62, ""That village back there were named for the birds by the first Master of Obernewtyn, Sir Lukas Seraphim. He were the first to come to th' mountains, an' a grand queer man he must have been to make his home up there with the Blacklands all round."
I was so excited when I got the book, I sat down in the food court and read it straight away ;).
13 years ago
Tue Jun 15 2010, 07:26am
I love the alternative theories on --
Maruman. That he may still be a real cat, or was originally a cat they knew. I guess...I hope the Sending makes it clearer for us!
I think I'm still sticking with the Maruman-is-Hannah theory...apart from Hannah's realisation that the cat is a dream-cat (she's a beastspeaker, so she'd be able to tell the difference between a dream and real cat surely), and because of the Moonwatcher title. Maruman's life is very much like Hannah's too - dictated by visions.
But that said I do love the thought that Merimyn was a real kitten ;)
Speaking of the name, Merimyn...we know Hannah was from "Tipoda"...that would mean she's from either Australia, NZ, or South Africa (they're the three counted in Antipodea these days). We could probably rule out South Africa really, as it'd be included in Gadfia. So, Hannah (Sr) is very likely to have an accent, when counted or compared against those who were born in Uropa. I'm starting to think Kiwi - first, say Maruman like a Brit might say it...then say it with a Kiwi accent (my boyfriend's a Kiwi :P so I can hear it really well :P ). I don't know about everyone else, but with a Kiwi accent a's sound like e's...it'd sound sort of like..."mehr-ew-men".
My long, rambling point is...that Merimyn could simply be the name Maruman, said in a different accent - crossed with how Elspeth hears it, having never heard the Kiwi accent before... :P
It's likely Hannah Jr picks up Hannah Sr's accent, at least for a while (but particularly while she was a child). Or perhaps, never having seen Maruman's name written down, she was just mimicking how her mum used to say it.
Heh. Sorry :P completely irrelevant, but I thought interesting.
Whitsilve!! :O That quote...throws an interesting light on things...wow. Perhaps --
we could say...Enoch got it wrong? :P
Mony I love the idea --
that Cassy had a similar letter to Hannah Jr's and that makes a LOT of sense! Particularly to outline what needed to happen after Hannah Sr went to the mountains.
Ashlings' guildleader
13 years ago
Wed Jun 16 2010, 01:08am
Ashlings' guildleader
Master of Obernewtyn
OML 8-| so exciting...
Min that makes so much sense with the Merimyn being a NZer saying Maruman...I was going to ask if anyone had picked up on Hannah coming from Australia/NZ (had we known that before now?) and I was thinking Australia, but now you've switched my thinking totally.
Both Hannah's definitely were beastspeakers, Hannah senior was described by Mellow as having "had a way with bees" and said "You could have sworn they did as she bid them". So confirmation that we have two Hannahs as beastspeakers or...I think i may be getting confused having two Hannahs now |:( .
I'm on the side of Maruman still being a real cat, but I'm not sure how or why...I think I'll just wait on that one.
And we now possibly have before timers still doing there before timer things at the end of the dark road 8-| .
Definitely need to read it again, because I've forgotten half of the things I wanted to theorise about
Howdy!
just wanted to say how lovely it was to have the book dedicated to Min!
You must be chuffed Min! :D
Okay, I went to Dymocks and spent a fortune on books on Friday! Now I can theorise with it!
Okay, a few points first. I LOVED it, and it makes me more impatient for the Sending.
Second, I got too impatient to read the theories so I stopped paying attention at Zier's post. If I repeat anything, I am thoroughly sorry.
Here it goes!
Well, Hannah has a daughter named Hannah! I may be a bit slow, but I never knew that.
And I agree with Zier. Seglia is defenitely got to do with Maruman. This is what I think about that: Cassy claimed never to send the cat because she never sent it. We know that seglia means something like behind, so now we know it means back in time. When Maruman went Seglia, he travelled the midstream/dreamtrails to Hannah's sleeping mind in the past, in his own form, because he was preparing her for the journey. He had been doing that for a long time, since he was a kitten. Merymninum (i know that's not the exact name but i don't have the book with me) is her nickname for him. Cassy found out that it was in fact maruman from the future and added him to the quest (laptop sound thingamajig).
I have much more to say but have to go.
That is all.
Axe, that's what I thought too. It didn't occur to me that Maruman was created by anyone. I think you are right, but maybe I read that part of the story too quickly. I was so excited!