Oh, I love the idea of DNA from Hannahs bones!
Some really great brainstorming here guys.
Gosh, I wish I knew what happened to Hannah jr after her arrival in that city. Did she return afterward? Did she die? Were there people there still with whom she decided to spend the rest of her life? I didn't want the story to end!!!
Given that I work at a bookstore, it's kinda sad that I've only jsut managed to read it, but sickness and pay day conspired to keep it out ouf my hands till now.
Re: Maruman, could he be both a real cat and a dream cat? In the sense that he's real, but Cassandra also used to weave an image of him to send to little? If she were used to the idea that it was Cassandra, wouldn't seh assume it was always Cassandra, rather than bothering to sense the difference? He does, after all, look quite different when she sees him later in life than he did when playing in her dreams. Or perhaps little Hannah senses Cassandra around him, and assumes she sent him, when it's actually a different sort of link.
I don't know if that's what I actually think yet, but it's an idea. I only just finished reading it, so everything's still whirling around in my head, and it may all make more sense when it has time to settle.
On that note Eth...perhaps-
The reason Cassy or Hannah wove Maruman in their time, was because they'd seen or been told of him physically arriving in Elspeth's time?
Though...he definitely has the abilities to travel back and forth in time...I'm still thinking Hannah-dream-cat. But yes, I'd like if he was a real cat too in the end :P
HUZZAH! I actually managed to find this book down here :D (And now I should probably go read The Dark Road before I get temtped to read any of the actual thread) 8-|
13 years ago
Mon Jul 05 2010, 12:29pm
Hehee, after a day romping around in the bookstore i finally read it......
I don't think Jacob is alive anymore. He's definitely dead. But as to HOW he died i'm not sure -- probably from radiation poisoning. I think Hannah Sr also died from radiation poisoning. Both of their bones are at the Beforetime City at the end of the Black Death Road. It is only called that BECAUSE Jacob Died travelling it; Hannah Sr was dead when she was travelling it; Hannah Jr most likely died after she travelled it. I don't think it's called Black Death Road because ELF will die on it - I don't think Elf will die there at all. In fact if anything, Elf will first set off on the black death road, reach the beforetime city; do her thing, then possibly go to Gadfia, then Red Queen's land. That's where her final "showdown" may occur; and that's why she may never see Obernewtyn again... (of course this is all purely stuff coming out of my brain and is totally conjecture - the books don't reallly support any of this "order" of travelling.)
What I'm MORE interested to know is what happened to Hannah Jr AFTER she reached the Beforetime City? Maybe she was cyrogenically frozen there, so when Elf reaches that City, she meets Hannah Jr, and Hannah Jr tells her stuff?
Anyhow, what was really interesting is this MINING project going on in TLOTRQ - PERHAPS though the mining project was only beginning during Hannah Jr's time; they dug so deep that they discovered ENTINA!! That's why it's called the ENTINA PIT. You know - mining "pit"
Same with Silent Vale - could that also have been a mining project until they struck something underground?
I was more surprised that Cassy was not the brains behind Elf's operations, but Hannah was. I always thought Hannah Sr was Cassy's mentor; but not the brains behind the operations. I mostly thought Cassy was an artist (I never really saw her as a teknoguilder). SO Cassy's main talents are BEASTSPEAKING and TEKNOGUILDING.
Hannah Sr's talents have been described enough times above :P
Also with regards to the "first male descendant of Hannah Seraphim will be born during Elf's time" - I thought this referred to Rushton, rather than Lukas. But it is entirely possible for it to be Lukas because he re-built Obernewtyn. Was it called Obernewtyn since Jacob's time there? Anyway, why would it be Lukas if Elspeth hadn't been born yet?
I get the uneasy feeling that Elspeth IS a descendant of Hannah Seraphim and Jacob Obernewtyn - as a distant cousin of Rushtons. Which kind of makes their relationship incestuous EWWW! I don't think she's a gypsy though, like someone suggested to her in a dream.
Also it is interesting that Aquilla is not a Beforetime Survivor. In that case, how did this "Queen" system become established?
YAY for Hannah/Jacob shipping. Even though Hannah Sr had a thing for William Reichler x_X , I'm glad Jacob won her over. But WHY did Jacob want to go over the BlackDeath Road? Was it also at Hannah's bidding? And did he go on this road BEFORE the Great White? or during the Age of Chaos? Was he cyrogenically frozen too? (I doubt it) but I don't know why...
EDIT:
Another thing that gives us a clue as to the time Hannah Jr is living in; is the fact that the Council is already becoming corrupt and the Herder Faction is increasing clout
SECOND EDIT:
Don't you think it is interesting that although ALL of Hannah's offspring are female until Rushton or Lukas, Rushton and Lukas's surname remains Seraphim? I mean wouldn't the women of the family have changed their surname according to whom the bonded to? As in take on their husbands or father's surname?
THIRD EDIT:
I think the "secret" is really nothing more than WHO took the bones from their Obernewtyn graves, and HOW they got to the Beforetime City
I think that with the bonding thing their names didn't have to change. And didn't say two girls, it never said anything about extras being born :-/
I just managed to get my hands on the book and have time to read it and my mind is still not working enough to post anything of much substance but here goes....
I still think that the male descendant to "make Obernewtyn his own" is Rushton. I know that Lucas rebuilt obernewtyn but he didn't really have to actually work to make it his own if you know what I mean. Rushton actually had to overtake Obernewtyn to claim it and make it his so it fits him more, especially since he is in the Seeker's time.
Cryogenic freezing is actually confirmed which makes it all the more pausible that the city and its inhabitants that will take Elsepth captive may be beforetimers.
I'm intrigued about the secret revealed in here though, it may be Maruman but I doubt it since he was always sort of a mystery and its ok for him to remain a mystery with not much effect on the storyline
And Hannah is the all important person that controls Elsepth's path not Cassy! and there are two Hannahs!
More will come later when I am thinking properly. lol when the Sending finally comes out and all our questions answered I bet most of us will be hitting our heads going "why didn't I see this sooner, its so obvious!"
I read the story a few weeks ago, but was so 8-| by all your theorising, I realised I was out of my depth! I need to reread the books again.
It was fantastic and I didn't want it to end!! I will have to reread the story again too!!
I love that IC's stories always have so much depth to them!
8walks in confused* where are these spoilers coming from?
Wanderer Ward
13 years ago
Wanderer Ward
Mage
Miky, IC wrote a short story, called The Dark Road, and it's set in the world of the OC. It can be found in the edited collection Legends of Australian Fantasy (which is available to buy now)
I haven't read the story yet, barring the first two pages, but just wanted to say, congrats on the dedication Min :)
13 years ago
Mon Jul 05 2010, 04:34pm
I havent been able to read everything but *spoiler below*
Well, Maruman travels on the dreamtrails, i thought thatanyone travelling on them could go back and forwards in time and change it. Remember when Elf does it? Anyway, so maybe Its actually Maruman in her dreams setting up the past events to allow Elf to succed?
Wanderer Ward
13 years ago
Wanderer Ward
Mage
Angina, that is quite similar to a theory I'm developing!
From what I understand, the Dreamtrails are limited in that you can only visit places that you know (?) Hence Elspeth could not go back to see the doors being installed or purchase (or made) ins tead she went back to her first (and best) view of them - her arrival.
Thus, my theory is that what Hannah Jr sees is actually Maruman - some sort of image of him, created by Cassy or Hannah Sr. Hanah Sr, having foreseen certain things, saw the need for The Seeker to be able to travel to certain times on the Dreamtrails. By creating this sending of Maruman, perhaps including some sort of essence of him (after all, the beasts do believe that they all rejoin the mindstream after death/before birth) This then enables Maruman to take Elspeth to the time on the Dreamtrails...
In other news, I've been rereading the series, and in Obernewtyn it says Enoch states that Lukas Seraphim named Guanette after the birds...this does not tally with the mentioning of the town in The Dark Road, already with the name Guanette... ???
Mystic Ward
13 years ago
Mystic Ward
Twentyfamilies Gypsy
There are a few bits that don't tally but I just enjoyed it anyway. :P
Wanderer Ward
13 years ago
Mon Jul 05 2010, 05:21pm
Wanderer Ward
Mage
Yeah, I know Deb, it just makes me sad to find things like that...although...it's entirely possible that Enoch is just repeating what he knows, and that the info in The Dark Road is correct - the village was named for the birds - but over time it got scrambled and now it's believed that Lukas named it?
13 years ago
Fri Jul 16 2010, 07:11pm
I think why Hannah and Cassy couldn't do it and Elf is special is because of several reasons:
1. Elf has the killing power - she is MUCH more powerful than Cassy and Hannah
2. Cassy and Hannah lived in more turbulent times - in the Beforetime they were under the eye of the government; and after they unfroze, society was still fragmented, people disoriented and large parts of the land were inaccessable.
3. the mining pit as mentioned above, brought about access to "entina" that wasn't available in Hannahs or Cassys time
where on earth can you buy this book in australia? i have looked and looked to no avail... help... please!
(possibly it may be due to the fact that i live a long way from major city centres, but still...)
Okay guys...I am confused. Are these spoilers to do with the Dark Road and the rest of the Obernetwyn Chroniscles or it is do with the Dark Road and Sending revelations? I wont read those spoilers unless I am certain it will not ruin the Sending for me. I have read the Dark raod..twice now ^^;
DT These are only The Dark Road spoilers. NOT the Sending Spoilers. There is a separate thread for that.
Alrighty, been gearing up for the Sending and this story blew me away... So much new information!
I really liked finding out where the name for the leader of the Twentyfamilies came from. Early on the piece mentions Evander's first born being the next Director of the Twentyfamillies... which makes sense of the word D'rekta. Evidently the spelling changed over time or perhaps it is a phonetical representation of how people heard the word spoken.
I also couldn't help noticing that the dangerous "Cloudy Sea" got a few mentions, as the did "The Spit". I vaguely remember from TSK that Elspeth gets a chance to look at a map of how to get to the Red Land on one of the Sadorian ships and that there was just blacklands for ages and ages except for a tiny little bit of land (or maybe an island?) that had fresh water. Could this be "the Spit"?? either way I think it is inevitable that the Cloudy Sea/the Spit makes an appearance in the Sending or The Red Queen *hopes that readers of the Sneding are nodding their heads*.
I agree with someone a while back (sorry forgotten who!) who thought the big secret was that it was Hannah Jr who would bring the bones to their final resting place. I can't imagine that in the rest of the series Elspeth will have any chance to find out how the bones got there, she will just assume that Hannah senior and Jacob got themselves there or managed it somehow, and really I doubt it would be critical to her quest to know how they got there, just to important to know what to do with them once she found them.
Also building on past discussions, reading this story made me think there would be a nice symmetry if Rushton was descended from Hannah and Elspeth was descended from Cassy. Together Hannah and Cassy had a partnership that strived to make the world a better place, and together Rushton and Elspeth are a partnership that works for the greater good of mankind.
Conversely, if we went instead with Elspeth also being descended from Hannah and Jacob, due to the whole green eye/black hair thing, there would be some nice symmetry in this: as we now know that Hannah refused Jacob's love at first, due to her sense of duty, in much the same way that Elspeth initially refused Rushton's love because she felt duty-bound to her future quest. Also I liked that this story showed as another parallel between Jacob and Rushton - as well as both having green eyes/black hair, both are unable to use/have Talented misfit powers, with Jacob describing himself as not special like Hannah or the others.
Furthermore, I thought it was interesting that excepting sculpting, the skills of the Twentyfamillies were taught to them by artisans in the Red Land. I doubt that is a point of major importance but it does get me wondering about the nature of a people who are so skilled, but can still allow themselves to act in servitude until the myth of their returning Red Queen is fulfilled.
Agree that the bones are likely to be important for DNA reasons, but that has me worried about damage to the DNA. I don't know much about science, but surely radiation exposure is likely to mutate or degrade the DNA? And the bones have spent plenty of time exposed to radiation, while carried in the sack across the blacklands by Hannah Jr (I assume they wouldn't have fitted inside the contamination suit).
Maurman... real cat vs dreamcat? I vote real cat, purely because half of TSK is spent lamenting how tired and old Maruman looks and watching him sleeping. Of course, one can be tired both in spirit as well as physically, but I vote he's a real cat in Elf's time *fingers crossed potentially losing him in the next books isn't too heartbreaking*
Just as an aside, I really loved IC's writing in this. Yay for short stories as a beautifully succinct writing format. I've got an ebook version so I don't know if the physical book is the same, but the short paragraphs were really refreshing and packed in so much info in such few words. I particularly loved the line about Hannah's smile: "Seeing it snipped some thread holding him back and with a soft sigh, he gathered her into his arms and kissed her tenderly". *Cue for all the romantics out there to sigh/cry in happiness*. Hope we see some Elspeth-Rushton time in the Sending. I feel their love has always been beautifully underplayed in the series but I sometimes wish we got to see more of them happy together *sigh*.
Sorry for the length of that post!! But hopefully some food for thought :)
Ashlings' guildleader
12 years ago
Fri Oct 28 2011, 08:26pm
Ashlings' guildleader
Dreamscape Artist
Sidebar: [act]steals the thought's food and starts nomming[/act]
Thought: Oi!
I have to disagree on your point about Elspeth possibly being descended from Hannah and Jacob. I mean they have two traits in common, not really enough to argue a genetic relation. Then there's been at least 5 and probably more generations since then, which would remove most genetic resemblances between distant relations and then you have to consider that Rushton got one of these traits from his mother and one from his father so you have to assume that he descends from them on both sides of his family before you can consider his hair colour and we don't really have enough evidence for that yet.
I think it's also unlikely that Elspeth descends from Cassie, it was pointed out in Ashling that not only does she have pale skin, she lacks pretty much every other gypsy trait, the only one she does have is black hair. I think that the dream reference to her being a gypsy either refers to her inclusion in the ancient promises, or her being descended from European Gypsies.
12 years ago
Tue Nov 01 2011, 11:42am
For those of you who are interested the mentions of Hannah Jn in the Stone Key are on Page 574:
" I came to a stature of a girl about my own age, standing and gazing into the middle distance frowning slightly" She had one hand lifted as if to shade her eyes from the glare of the sun...the person is resembled most was Hannah...it was curious Hannah should have decided to chisel Hannah as a girl when they had not met unti Hannah was middle aged...it was not a perfect likeness..."
It goes on a bit further but that is the most important part. This passage takes up one big paragraph on Elspeth's musings on the matter of this curious statue.
The other mention I have come across so far is on page 582. This reference begins at the top of the page:
"...She came to land with my ancesters from the Red Queen's Land as a toddler. I don't know why but it said that the D'rekta loved her like a daughter and that Evander loved her too, though apparently not as a brother loves a sister. She went away to the mountains after his mother was taken by slavers...others say she went to the mountains to seek her mother, though I don't know how that could be...Evander sought her out whenever the wandering of Twentyfamilies brought them near to her dwelling place."
Another one at Page 801:
"I...thought of stonehill [and] The girl that Iriny said cassy loved as a doughter, even though she was not one of the twentyfamilies, must have lived on stonehill as well, growing into womanhood."
I felt that these ought to be listed somewhere and I was veryexcited when I cam across them in my re-reading of the Stone Key.
I don't think I need to put those in spiler tags... :-/
