11 years ago
Thu Jan 31 2013, 03:36pm
So, I have recently been rereading the OC's and I am currently at Wavesong or the first part of The Stone Key for anyone outside the U.S.
I know that there has been a lot of speculation on who the Destroyer is and that perhaps the Destroyer is a completely different person from the H'rayka (one whom brings destruction). I think I may just have found a nice slip of proof that IC snuck into the books.
In Wavesong, pg. 315 Chapter 17 there is something said that is very interesting.
'Mendi grunted. "What about Ariel being sent to the west coast after going to Norseland? What is he to do there?"
Grisyl shrugged. "Lud's will, apparently. But perhaps the One simply confuses Ariel's present journey to Norseland with the longer journey he has been planning to make to the Red Land."
"I had the feeling from the One's words that Ariel is to undertake some specific task on the west coast," Mendi persisted. "Did he not specifically say that Ariel will strike a blow in Lud's name?"
"Something like that," Grisyl agreed, frowning. "And now that you mention it, I have heard that Ariel has been working on something special. Something to do with two nulls he has kept locked in his chamber. He has taken them with him, you know."
Mendi said, "My concern is less what Ariel has gone to do than that he chose to go or was sent without our being consulted. I dislike this policy of secrecy that excludes us but includes one who is not of the Faction."'
Okay from what we know later on in TSK is Domick is one of these Nulls so that accounts for one of them.
I am of the belief that in Obernewtyn when Jes was killed, it clearly states that the council knew about Misfits like him, so when Rosamunde was captured and tortured I believe that the Herder Faction was also involved and altered Rosamunde's memory of what happened and that Jes was never killed!
I believe that the Herder Faction took Jes to their island and experimented on him and when Ariel became in league with the Council and the Herder Faction that he found Jes. Why else would he start calling Elspeth Elf if not for the information he pulled from Jes' mind.
So, that being said, I believe Ariel is the H'rayka as Maruman has said and that he brings the Destruction of Jes in The Red Queen because it will be such a shock for Elspeth to see her brother whom is supposed to be dead.
Now, on the chance that I am wrong about Jes being the second Null
Who do you think the second "special Null" is?
Wanderer Ward
11 years ago
Wanderer Ward
Mage
Didn't IC state that Jes was dead? Like, no come-backsies gone?
My thought was that the second Null was Rushton, since Ariel had both of them at the same time?
But it says that Ariel took the second Null with him. I don't believe there is anywhere that IC said that, at least not in the books. In that same chapter, the Herders talk about leaving Rushton in the land for a different plan so Rushton could not be the second Null.
Wanderer Ward
11 years ago
Wanderer Ward
Mage
Fair enough. It's been a while since I've read the books (last re-read was prep for The Sending release), so I could very well be wrong.
It's amazing how Isobelle goes throughout the whole series saying Jes is dead though, simply on the supposed witness of one girl.
Wanderer Ward
11 years ago
Wanderer Ward
Mage
No, I believe we have an interview with her (somewhere on the site...) where she says he is definitely dead. Because he used to feature a lot in our theories, and after she let us know that fact, we all had to come up with new ones! :P
Mystic Ward
11 years ago
Mystic Ward
Twentyfamilies Gypsy
Ariel used a machine to 'create' his Nulls so I doubt if the Herders had anything to do with it as they have a total distrust of anything from the Beforetime. The council might have had 'ideas' but surely if they knew about misfit talents they would have been checking all the seditioners and their kids before burning and sending them off to orphanages.
I think Isobelle did state in interviews that she had considered bring Jes back but that was years ago now so I imagine much has changed. I do definitely want to know who that second null is though because I don't think we've found out yet. But then again I really needs to reread the books.
Ashlings' guildleader
11 years ago
Ashlings' guildleader
Dreamscape Artist
Lidge Baby was one that was brought up ages ago.
So this subject has been brought up? What a sad thought but I wouldn't put it past Ariel.
11 years ago
Thu Jan 31 2013, 07:37am
Yeap, Lidgebaby has been theorised as the second Null. It would be virtually impossible for Ariel to not know about Lidgebaby at some time in Farseekers. He has Talent and he was in the Druid encampment. Even if Ariel took and sold many of the others to slavers, they would have no use for a seemingly ordinary baby and they would never allow any of the slave women to 'keep' him.
In saying that, though - Lidgebaby prevents people from using their Talent, and this would have put Ariel at a disadvantage - unable to use his own. But it's plausible that the discovery of Lidgebaby provoked Ariel into coming up with the demon bands (synthesizing Lidge's talent, essentially - sort of), and possibly a way to get around it himself. Ariel would never willingly give over that sort of power to non-talents without finding a way to make himself immune to it.
I remember a really good one-shot fanfiction from the early 00's where - I think Viv - wrote it from Jes' perspective as being under Ariel's control, and not dead at all. But at that time, Isobelle did say directly to us that Jes was definitely dead, as the others have already said. It was while I was theorising Jes was the Destroyer and wrote her a letter to ask (this was pre-Keeping Place). She said it was a great alternate universe almost that I'd theorised but that Jes was definitely dead (/not the Destroyer). She also said my other guess, Swallow, was not either, but the sort of person she'd guess if she were in our positions, take from that what you will.
But - a few years ago - Isobelle said Jes might be alive after all. What we can take from this is one important thing - whether he's alive or not - Jes can't be the Destroyer, because Isobelle's had the Destroyer's identity determined since the beginning. If there's a period of time where, in Isobelle's head, Jes was definitely dead, he could never have been the Destroyer.
Re Jes being used by Ariel - it is plausible enough - I think we all agree that with Rosamunde's susceptible mind she could have been made to believe anything. Jes could have even planted the memory himself, in order to escape with his rebel friends and keep Rosamunde's safe / stop her from going after him. But how would Ariel's path have crossed Jes'? Out of Lidge and Jes as possible 2nd Null, it chronologically makes more sense for Ariel to have taken control of Lidgebaby than of Jes. Taking into account the demon band production began shortly after Ariel left the Druid's camp (in ruins), and that they inhibit Talent just like the baby's, you could almost argue that Lidgebaby was Ariel's experiment to begin with to see if it was possible to block Talent with another, mobile, Talented.
...yes...Ariel is Lidgebaby's father... :P
11 years ago
Thu Jan 31 2013, 03:34pm
Are you saying that Ariel is basically Lidge's adopted father or that you actually think he's his father? In TSK Lidge would probably be about 5 or 6, so Ariel could be working with him from the beginning to hone his powers and make him as sadistic as him.
EDIT: Alright, I just read the second half where they explain a description of the second null in the book and they describe it as either a child or a midget with a scarred face which goes in sequence that it is indeed Lidge which is just depressing, but as I said before, I wouldn't put it passed Ariel to be so evil.
I was joking when I said Ariel was Lidge's father (hence the :P ) but I guess it is actually possible that Ariel actually fathered Lidge. Whether on purpose, or by accident. Maybe he saw in a Futuretelling/Dreamtrail that he'd have a powerful child - I'm sure he's as lead by what he sees in dreamtrails as the next person.
Do we know anything about Lidge's mother? I can't remember if Lidge is in daycare because that's what Druid children do, or if it was because the mother was no longer around...
I think the scarred face could be from the firestorm. What if Lidge was badly hurt in the firestorm?
Or, what if Ariel wanted everyone to think Lidge had died in the firestorm so they wouldn't bother trying to find him/her? So he let it be seen/thought that Lidge perished in it.
Same could be said for Jik, tbh, but I find it more likely that Jik is really dead and Lidge is the second null.
Wanderer Ward
11 years ago
Wanderer Ward
Mage
If I remember correctly, Lidge's mother was still around, but they were doing all they could to hide Lidge's powers from her, as she'd already had one baby destroyed, and was bonded to one of the Priest guys (I've temporarily blanked on their name, and can only think "Herder" which I know isn't right!)
So, it is still feasible that Ariel had fathered Lidge. We know he was living in the camp for a while before he left to go hang out with the Council, and did return often to visit.....
Plus, even with the Mother being bonded to another man, we all know that Ariel has no problems using his powers to make others do things he wants to....
Oh my Lud....what happens if the first baby was also Ariel's, but it wasn't Talented, so he got the mother to denounce it so he could try again??
Ok, this is why I don't theorise very often....I'm a terrible person!
11 years ago
Thu Jan 31 2013, 05:52pm
It is theoretically possible that Ariel is Liege's father, but I find it difficult to see it actually being the case; mostly because the way things appeared to be, the Druid was gunning for Ariel to be a match for his oldest daughter, Erin, and I don't think he would be doing that if Ariel were off impregnating other girls. Also, with the way Druid Misfits (and the other Druid people) spoke of Ariel (from what I remember), if he were the father, it would probably have been something they would have mentioned to Elf & co at some point. This does, of course, assume that people would know, and I guess it is possible that Ariel managed to keep it a secret if he were the father (just as he keeps everything else about himself so quiet >:( ) but I think that would be a lot of effort for something that seems like such a minor payoff (from Ariel's perspective, at least).
As to the second null, I always just sort of assumed it was Lidgebaby, just as I assumed the 'beautiful woman' who is said to sometimes speak on Salamander's behalf is Erin Druid, simply because I believe Ariel would have picked out the still-useful members of the camp before burning and selling the ones he didn't want or need any more.
Though the idea of it being Jik almost seems more likely, based on some of the other surprises Isobel has thrown at us over the years, and 'saving' Jik would be just the sort of thing Ariel would do, knowing what it would do to Elf in the long run. Of course, just because there is only one 'second' null doesn't mean Ariel doesn't have them both tucked away somewhere...
Edit: re: BB's comments... I don't think Ariel would have been old enough to be the father of the first child (considering he would have been only 9 or 10 when he first came to the camp).
You're not a terrible person, Ariel is.
Elspeth says I think either in The Sending that she has only every known 5 Empath Enthrallers, Ariel, Lidge, Dragon, Sover, Freya and Gavyn. I realize that is 6 but Isobelle left out one and I don't remember which one. So if we are going on the belief that maybe children inherit their genetic abilities (Elspeth and Jes)(Zarak and his dad(Khuria?))(Miky and Angina) it is very possible that he is Lidge's dad.
Oh yeah, something else I forgot to mention, have their been any theories of Selmar being alive still.
I don't think Jik is alive because Daffyd berried his remains after the firestorm and Dragon screamed after seeing them.
If by the slight chance that the second Null isn't Lidge then is it possible that Gavyn and Lidge are the same person?
11 years ago
Thu Jan 31 2013, 06:05pm
He was 12-13 when he first came to the camp as he was said to be 12 in Obernewtyn so he would have been about 14-15 in Farseekers.
Anyway, I think I had assumed the second Null was Lidge too but I had since forgotten Lidge existed :P (I really need to reread the books) Presently, isn't Lidge in TLRQ already? Or where the people who were connected to him lose track of him? I know Daffyd had gone off after the mute girl who he was in love with, and she's definitely in TLRQ with Matthew but I can't remember about Lidge.
EDIT: OH I think I remember reading theories that Gavyn was Lidge so I guess that means he's deifnitely not in TRQL for that to be a theory, haha. (my memory is terrible).
11 years ago
Thu Jan 31 2013, 06:19pm
I still don't think 15 is old enough to father a child, though I suppose physically it would be :-/
There have been some theories that Selmar is alive, but the conversation in Obernewtyn that Elf overhears between Ariel and Alexi makes it pretty clear she's dead (Alexei says something about how Ariel didn't have to make it so bloody? -- or where they talking about the other one whose name I can't remember right now because it is past my bedtime?)
I recall theories that Gavin is Lidge baby :nods: I also remember that the Erin's little sister (the mute girl, whose name I also can't remember) and a lot of the other camp members were sold into slavery just before the firestorm hit, and Daffyd is trying to track them down. There was no specific mention that guaranteed Lidge Baby was among them.
Gavin being Leidge baby fits with the timeline, and could explain a lot about him, but it would also lend to the idea that Ariel was unaware of his powers (or unwilling/unable to make use of them), or even unaware of his existence alltogether (since the misfits were actively trying to protect him, it stands to reason they would work extra hard at protecting him from Ariel, who even then was perceived as a threat to them, even though the Druid accepted him well enough).
Edit: It's true that Ariel might very well have manipulated (indirectly) Gavyn into the position of being taken in at Obernewtyn, and his futuretelling ability is definitely strong enough that it's not a stretch for him to have seen the usefulness... hmm... more to think about for certain.
Wanderer Ward
11 years ago
Wanderer Ward
Mage
Gilane...she's the mute one :P
Hang on, Gavyn's friend/carer chick (whose name I can't remember!!! Does it start with S?)
Anyway, doesn't she say that she was a "maid" to this girl, who was then married off, and died in childbirth, and so now she looked after Gavyn, because she had been close to his mother?
Anyway, long story short - I always thorugh Gavyn couldn't be Lidgebaby, because of this.
Ama, epic theory on Erin - It never really occured to me that she could be that woman...I think I always had some sort of Esmerelda-like gypsy-style woman in my head, but of course that would make her far too obvious, where as someone who matches culturally with the Land-folk would be a far better option.
11 years ago
Thu Jan 31 2013, 06:39pm
If Ariel had coerced that whole story into Seely's head than Gavyn could be Lidge.
Where does it say that Salamander sometimes used a woman to talk for her/him? I just don't remember it.
I can't imagine Ariel wandering around fathering children, even if he had been old enough. His evil has always seemed really cold, to me. Can't imagine him having the fire to force himself on a woman, or the impulses to want to attract one through his Misfit powers.
I'm not really basing that on anything. Just this gut feel that such a thing would be too human for him.
Good point about the Seely story - until you reminded me of that, I had been convinced that Gavyn was LidgeBaby. But Angels explanation is nice, too (and lets me keep my theory intact).
Daffyd was already half null by the time he left - he was just so obsessed with finding Gilaine that I don't think Ariel would have had much fun breaking him. Hmm, Jik is an interesting option though. And if IC decided Jes could be alive, imagine how that would hurt Elspeth!
