meisje
If Ariel had coerced that whole story into Seely's head than Gavyn could be Lidge.
Where does it say that Salamander sometimes used a woman to talk for her/him? I just don't remember it.
He had simply been approached in an inn by a beautiful, dark-haired woman bearing a note with Salamander's mark.
dargaFleas
I can't imagine Ariel wandering around fathering children, even if he had been old enough. His evil has always seemed really cold, to me. Can't imagine him having the fire to force himself on a woman, or the impulses to want to attract one through his Misfit powers.
I'm not really basing that on anything. Just this gut feel that such a thing would be too human for him.
Good point about the Seely story - until you reminded me of that, I had been convinced that Gavyn was LidgeBaby. But Angels explanation is nice, too (and lets me keep my theory intact).
Daffyd was already half null by the time he left - he was just so obsessed with finding Gilaine that I don't think Ariel would have had much fun breaking him. Hmm, Jik is an interesting option though. And if IC decided Jes could be alive, imagine how that would hurt Elspeth!
Sionainn
Same here; I can't see Ariel off fathering kids either (though this may just be the fangirl in me screaming noooo) but it was implied that he may have forced himself on some of the Shadows in TSK.
meisje
If Ariel had coerced that whole story into Seely's head than Gavyn could be Lidge.
Where does it say that Salamander sometimes used a woman to talk for her/him? I just don't remember it.
Ashling p 287 (2007 Penguin):He had simply been approached in an inn by a beautiful, dark-haired woman bearing a note with Salamander's mark.
Which means if it is Erin, she's either dyed her hair or is wearing a wig.
I'd never thought about Lidge and Gavyn being one and the same, but it makes sense if Ariel or someone else coerced the people around Gavyn/Lidge into believing that story Seely told.
Arwen
Sian
Gillaine: He'll always be my baby!!! >:(
Has it actually been established that Lidge is his name? I was never sure whether that was meant as a name or an adjective.
Sionainn
The exact quote is 'Also, he. . . He uses as he wishes and he is very . . . Cruel.' Page 387. Elspeth's reacted with a kind of shock and horror and she's no stranger to the fact that Ariel likes his torture so that's why I assumed otherwise.
Min
I'm not really suggesting Ariel wants to settle down and have a family :P (lol, oh Lud, the prospect...)
Ultimately, though, it comes down to which one bears more weight on Ariel's personality: his vanity, or his sadism. He may very well have done things to the girls if his desire to cause pointkess pain overroad his meticulous isolation. Also, whatever he may or may not have done to them does not change the fact that, if he saw a purpose in fathering a powerful child, he may have done so anyway. He is very much driven by his visions. He reminds me of Leto or Paul from Frank Herbert's Dune in that respect, -- he will do whatever he has to do to make his visions come to pass.
Min
I'm not really suggesting Ariel wants to settle down and have a family :P (lol, oh Lud, the prospect...)
Hmmmm, is the Mr and Mrs Smith thread still at thing? [act]steeples fingers evilly[/act]
I also don't think that Gavyn and Lidgebaby would even be in the same age group.
Based on the fact that Gillaine worked in the nursery and the assumption that she would have used every ounce of influence she had to try to get him weaned asap, he couldn't have been much more than a year old in farseekers. And based on IC's assertion that Elf is still a teenager in Sneding, that would make him around the 4-5 age group at that time, where as I would have put Gavyn in the 6-7 age group since he sounds at least five in TKP.
Also, bit confused is Gavyn=Lidge also meant to equal second null or is that an alternative? I can't find the section in the book, so I can't check, but when is Ariel supposed to have had the two nulls at once? Gavyn and Seeley come to Obernewtyn towards the start of TKP don't they? So most of the time that Ariel had Domick, Gavyn was at Obernewtyn, so if Lidge was the second null, he couldn't have been Gavyn.
Sian
Min
I stand by my recent theory that Gavyn's reason for inclusion is to be the one who stays with the Eden project / free-running Barud in the end, who has the abilities to both interface with INES (or whatever software runs it) and not technically be funaga, so the beasts ARE truly free of them.
deb
pg 138 of TSK. Elf is dreaming of Matthew and Gilaine and realises that Gilaine can farseek without touching. "...she must have been separated from Lidgebaby, or something had happened to break the thrall in which he had held her and the others." Good reasoning to suggest that the second null may be lidge.
destinywest
I think that Jes definitely died and it was Mathew who started calling Elspeth Elf because he found it in her mind when they first met. The second null could simply be Mika as though they were counted as two separate nulls because in truth he did take both of them to the west coast they were just in the same body.
But that's just my theory.
Special-Me
Seely's memories were examined pretty thoroughly, when she first arrived. Gavyn is a councilman's son, right? and she took him away so the step mother couldn't declare him misfit so her son would inherit. Obernewton coercers looked at Seely's memories to find useful info about the council.
I don't think Lidge went to the red land with Gilaine and the others, since Gilaine can now talk mind-to-mind without physical contact.
Sorry, I haven't read page 2 in this thread yet, i am late for work.
I think a lot of the feeling that Aiel didn't do sex stuff come from the fact that when it comes to sex, the books are pretty PG. A lot of the references, like Gilaine saying he used them, seem to be designed for adults to understand, and young readers who don't get it will not notice. I think it is well within the realms of Ariel's special kind of cruelty to rape the Shadows.
